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Direct-mount brakes?
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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/16/21 4:47 AM

Direct-mount brakes?

I recently came across these while browsing randomly. It looks like someone has taken the idea of frame-mounted centerpulls (a LA Rene Herse?) and cantilevers, and created frame-mounted sidepulls. These cable-operated rim brakes require a pair of threaded inserts in the fork legs and seat stays, but no yoke cable. Anyone here seen/experienced these?

I know, they've likely been around for years and fully discussed. But I've been busy!

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

11/16/21 9:33 AM

Like the Paul's Racer Mediums you mean? They use
Canti studs in non canti/V position.

EDIT: Maybe not these, they use a stradle. Got a pic?


I have direct mount on a Custom English, They are industry standard direct mount same as Trek uses, and use Ultegra calipers. The rear being under the chain stays behind BB. These came on scene maybe 2016?

As to the Paul's Medium Racer, they do make it for single mount, but the dual direct mount Medium Racer are for a custom frame:

Paul's description includes:

It is important to note that the Braze-On Racer Medium does not mount to brake bosses in the standard cantilever position, and it will not work with U-brake bosses. Please refer to our support article on Braze-On Center Pull Brakes for more information. Reach is determined by the height of the center pull brake bosses, which can be positioned by a frame builder to match up with 700c, 650b, or 26″ wheels.

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/16/21 6:04 PM

These…

See:

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/why-direct-mount-brakes-are-awesome/

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

11/16/21 7:28 PM

Those are what is on my English, industry standard direct mount R8000.


I thought you meant the special placed mounts like the Paul's..

When I almost bought a 50% off $12k 2018 Domane, red Race Shop like Dans it had those.

2017 forward I think on the Race Shop Domanes. I thought they'd have gobs of tire clearance, but was a bit disappointed. There was plenty of room over the top of the tire, but the castings in the calipers for the dual mounts, Dura-Ace 9000 Di2 kit in this case, were quite close to the tire.

It had tubulars which at the time I had sold for 2800.00 to someone once I picked up the bike. I figured on wide rims and at least 28mm clinchers, but a 28 on a wheel we tested at the LBS was so very close to the castings.

I had already put the credit card down, and changed my mind last minute. There was another reason as well I will spare this dialog from. ;)

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/17/21 4:18 AM

Wide tires

I was surprised at the width claim. I run a dual-pivot front brake and centerpull rear, running 28mm tires with fenders. If I wanted WIDE, I would go with cantilevers, which already are post-mounted. Other than getting rid of yoke cables, I don’t see the advantage to these. I’m still not a fan of disc brakes, particular hydraulic units because of complexity…but then I am old and cranky.

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 3234
Location: Midland, MI

11/17/21 10:30 AM

Centerpulls revisited

These brakes essentially take the two pivots of centerpull brakes and move them to the frame rather than them being anchored to the fork crown center bolt. It's definitely an improved design from a braking standpoint, allowing wider tires and a stronger brake design. If every fork came with these mounting holes these brakes might be in wide use due to their superior design. In practice I have never seen these brakes in the flesh and so assume they must be one of those many "good ideas that never got wide adoption." It's unlikely they will provide much competition with disc brakes, cantilevers, etc.

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/17/21 10:45 AM

Hmm

That was my assumption as well, given the rise of disc brakes.

Interestingly, you hear a lot on the iBOB list about centerpull brakes that mounted to brazed-on posts, like these:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/components/brakes/centerpull-brakes/

However, like cantilever brakes, those require a yoke, which can be a bit of a pain in the additional hardware department.

It's definitely true that having the arms mount direct to frame is going to improve braking--though how much and whether it will actually be perceptible is an open question. On width, I have my doubts. As I said, I run a dual-pivot in front with loads of room for 35mm (and probably wider) tires. But they (direct-mounts) look cool.

The "new" direct-mount brakes do seem to solve the yoke problem, by building a cable stop (including adjustment and--in some cases--a quick release) into one brake arm (somewhat like V-brakes in that regard).

Given the price of the components and the need for a dedicated frame, I, too, doubt whether many of these (or the Herse brakes) will show up very often, other than on show bikes. But Shimano et al. do seem to think enough of them to put them into production and, per Sparky, some bike manufacturers are selling them.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

11/17/21 11:50 AM

FWIW; I have Paul's MiniMoto Vs on a Canti CX frame. They are quite pricey, but it is a total Custom frame I picked up for 1/2 than the paint on it would cost if new build.

I can not imagine better brakes for looks/fenders/fat tires/stopping, they are very potent/powerful. I still hold a 28" disc is best. ;)

I'd probably have got the purple if I could have found them [for under 375.00], the deal on the black new shipped for $265.00 was as good as it gets, by a margin.



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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

11/18/21 9:02 AM

If you want to run canti's or mini-V's, there's a multitude of older 'cross frames available cheap, since nearly everyone uses discs now. I can't remember the last time I saw someone at a 'cross race with rim brakes.

I have a 'cross bike with mini-V's on it and it's been collecting dust for several years. I've been debating about what to do with it, but I guess it would make a decent errand bike if I put road tires on it.

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/18/21 10:01 AM

All this fancy stuff!

This is my bike these days. Not going anywhere fast or fancy, using braking technology from the 60s (rear) and 80s (front).



I am *old*.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

11/18/21 12:21 PM

Nothing wrong with that, nice machine. And you gotta love CS so long you can really get the pump outta the way.

But on that subject, I wont cross over to the current cookie cutter carbon gravel ilk myself, Likely to go in reverse from here..

Seen those roller-cam brakes before, the surfaces that mate on the actuation wedges get nasty with wear. No idea how long that takes in use.

I did that Strong All Road/gravel frame, 2015. QR axles, King 1-1/8" HS, Carl Strong hand made fork etc. I could have got TA, 44mm HT, that was the stuff that was just becoming 'current then. Just before flat mount brakes etc. This is ISO Disc.

It literally is an All Road bike that does everything very good. Nothing stellar, but nothing poor either.

This is what make it stellar to me. ;) it could be my only bike, but it is not of course. ;)

I like it thru wet season with 650b on it. Just popped them on 2 weeks ago, I get more excited about the change and riding it than putting snows on the cars winter wise. ;)


Last edited by Sparky on 11/18/21 1:42 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/18/21 12:53 PM

Sorta Relevant

https://jalopnik.com/i-am-dumping-money-into-a-trash-bike-because-it-has-the-1848070498

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

11/20/21 11:32 AM

Still racing CX using Weinmann C-P's, but it's been a loooong time since I've seen anyone else using such a setup. I actually got very good modulation/performance by using tethers on the front brake's pads (running back to the fork legs), to prevent any significant torque from binding the meager pivots that otherwise would see plenty of torque leverage from the long-reaching arms.
Running 42mm (43mm actual) Hurricane Ridge knobbies on this setup and there is still some room within the calipers.

I'm thinking that the dual-pivots that give room for your 35mm tires must be the Tektro's? Those are a common retrofit these days, but Dia Compe also sold huge dual-pivot calipers years ago that came fitted to Performance's gravel bike or "road hybrid" of the time back in 1991.
And Altenberger sold huge dual-pivot "Synchron" calipers starting in the 1960's that came in reaches well into the 70mm range and a shorter 60's mm one as well.
Getting ready to put these on my Bob Jackson as I speak!

The brazed-on centerpulls really are a great setup I can attest, with the pivots up high there is just so little flex, and the leverage is surprisingly excellent as well.
Centurion actually sold a "Pro Tour" model in the late 1970's which came with brazed-on Dia Compe "G" centerpulls, and which provide seriously excellent braking on my bike using the original pads(!) all these years later. They're probably the second-best rim brakes I've used, second to the Mini-V's on my Cannondale Super-X.

Lastly, the super-direct cable routing to the rear (only) under-chainstay "U" brake on my old Jamis Dakar offers some of the most direct and responsive braking to be found, with so little flex in the system courtesy of the single, short run of housing, the oversized cable wire and of course the super-rigid chainstay-mounted pivots.













Last edited by dddd on 11/20/21 11:39 AM; edited 1 time in total

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/20/21 11:38 AM

Tektro 559, if I remember correctly.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

11/20/21 11:47 AM

That jibes.

I have some 556's and 559's, and the only differences appear to be the cable adjusters and the coloration of the quick-release forging (different vintage maybe?).

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

11/20/21 12:08 PM

Which Vs on the dale, look 8cm types?

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

11/21/21 11:09 AM

My experience with mini-v brakes has been that they're OK in most dry conditions, but seriously lacking when it's wet, even when using Kool-Stop salmon brake pads. On a dry descent of a long, steep dirt road in VT at ~30mph, I discovered that my TRP mini-v brakes would only prevent me from accelerating, but would not stop me no matter how hard I squeezed the levers. Fortunately, there was a long-enough level runout before the next intersection and I was able to stop. Had it been wet, I would have been faced with blowing through the intersection or laying the bike down in order to stop. Linda had similar difficultly and that was when we made the decision to get disc-brake gravel bikes. We haven't used our rim-brake gravel/'cross bikes since. BTW, the TRP brakes were the correct models for our respective brake levers.

In contrast, I haven't had any issues with rim brakes on the road, though I very rarely ride in wet conditions.


Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 11/22/21 8:57 AM; edited 1 time in total

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/21/21 11:31 AM

Wet Conditions

I often ride on roads in wet conditions, and I find that a little judicial early application strips the water off the rims without too much trouble--and I am definitely no lightweight. I do recommend the salmon Kool-Stop pads!

I also recommend good fenders under the brakes, but that's not going to do very much to help your brakes--a little, because it's only sidewall water and grit that you have to deal with, but less than you might think.

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Matthew Currie
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 800
Location: Vermont

11/21/21 1:23 PM

I have an ancient Bianchi mountain bike with roller-cam brakes, rusting in the chicken house. Not only roller cam, but chainstay mounted on the rear. I never thought they'd be valuable!

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/22/21 8:24 AM

So many attempts to reinvent the wheel stopper

Then there were there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DosjM5PsysA&ab_channel=TheYellowSheldon

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

11/22/21 9:07 AM

YIKES!

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

11/22/21 2:31 PM


quote:
I have some 556's and 559's, and the only differences appear to be the cable adjusters and the coloration of the quick-release forging (different vintage maybe?).

I have both of those on 650B conversion bikes. The 556 was the earlier model, and doesn't have a locking mechanism on the quick release, which the 559 does. The QR on those brakes opens them so wide that if you forget to close it again after fixing a puncture out on the road (which I've managed to do once or twice), the brake blocks don't grip the rim even with the brake lever all the way to the handlebars.

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

11/22/21 4:26 PM

Tektro goes far. Too far?

If you really need long reach, how about these?

https://www.amazon.com/Tektro-Calipers-72-92mm-Nutted-Silver/dp/B07RRVL4Q7/ref=pb_allspark_dp_sims_pao_desktop_session_based_4/130-7572465-6254709?pd_rd_w=d5mbS&pf_rd_p=e896123b-6614-49c5-873e-d532e726c2f0&pf_rd_r=K0KBYQ85A1RC2PCR9Z9N&pd_rd_r=8b552d47-a69c-4ec9-a528-aaf812e84341&pd_rd_wg=PDELk&pd_rd_i=B07RRVL4Q7&psc=1

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

11/22/21 7:49 PM

"really need long reach"

I wonder if they are not too flexy as have not so great stopping performance as long as they are.

My longest in use are BR-650 Shimano which are mid and pretty beefy in the weight dept but are excellent stoppers.

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 3234
Location: Midland, MI

11/23/21 10:21 AM

Scott Pederson

We had Scott Pederson self energizing brakes on our tandems and they worked really well. Good design and well-executed. Mounted on standard cantilever studs. They weren't cheap which probably was the reason they never became a popular standard.

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