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Record 12 non disc Groupo Sale 1270.00
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/21/19 8:46 AM

Record 12 non disc Groupo Sale 1270.00

Heads up. While the extra 10% off is still valid:

https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/campagnolo-record-12-speed-groupset-120859.html

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4376
Location: Nashua, NH

5/21/19 9:46 AM

I'm actually glad that they don't have the crank/gearing combo I want in stock, since I really can't afford it until I get back to work, but I would have been tempted...

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/21/19 10:18 AM

Also, is there going to be a 12-29 12 speed cassette I wonder.


For me, 12 s with the 11t is one less gear. or same as my 12-29 setup 11s setups. Not to mention IMO the previous 'non 4 arm' cranks are way pretty by comparison.

But I felt that way about the 105/Ultegra/D/A 11s chainsets at first and now I got used to them...

But on a sweet lugged steel frameset with a matching steel fork, the 4 arm style would cause me pause in the aesthetics dept.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4376
Location: Nashua, NH

5/21/19 10:53 AM

I feel the same way about the gearing; I have no use for an 11.

Since the likelihood of me ever buying a steel frame is about zero, I really don't care much about the crank design. I'm far more interested in whether I can get the gearing I want and rarely buy complete groups, preferring to mix and match as necessary.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/21/19 11:03 AM

So what is your [and others] feeling on newer 32/46-8 with a 32t cassette VS just using 36/52 chainset with a GS RD and a 36T cassette. Same low gear in those two examples...


Having more teeth engaged for same gear ratio makes for longer wear, no?

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2597
Location: hillbilly heaven

5/21/19 2:05 PM

I'm going with 12 speed because I have to think that campy will eventually introduce 12-x cassettes. if they don't, I still have 11 useful gears so I'm no worse off.

it will be the first time in my cycling career that I have up to date components. I'm currently on 9 speed although its still fine. I'll get the Chorus 32-48 crank,hoping they do a 30-46.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4376
Location: Nashua, NH

5/21/19 3:27 PM

The 48/32 seems like a half-hearted effort, basically a stupidly cautious move considering the the crank can obviously accommodate a 30t (or possibly smaller) inner ring. What are they afraid of? People obviously want the smaller chainring, as evidenced by the sales of other brands of sub-compact cranks.

The same is true of cassettes that start with a 12 tooth cog, though there aren't many on the market so the sales data probably isn't particularly impressive. Since Miche is one of the only companies making cassettes for both Campy and the S brands that start with a 12 or 13t cog, it would be interesting to know what percentage of their sales they are.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6194
Location: Maine

5/21/19 3:50 PM

Yeah

The 48/32 is not significantly different from the 50/34 Iíve used forever. And, as stated, itís easy to get a 46/30, as Iíve used for years on the cross bike. Zzzzzzzzzz.

Iím totally down with a 38 and 11-42! Not trying to open up this discussion again. :)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/21/19 5:15 PM

I guess with a 46 big chainring the 11 makes more sense... Or on my Mongrel a 42...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4376
Location: Nashua, NH

5/21/19 5:28 PM

I'm happy with the 46/12 I'm running now, as it's essentially the same as the 50/13 on my road bikes. I would be happy with a 44/11, too, even though it's a bit bigger gear, but a 42/11 is similar to the other two.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/21/19 8:21 PM

"but a 42/11"

my chainset is 28/42, 16T diff would make me happier.

I rode it today, and i used the 28 on a 1.6 mile 6% avg grade climb breifly. It was too low even for the 12+ % section. But I found the 28frnt/32t cog good for seated on that section. A 34/28 I'd have had to stand I guess..

I spent 21.5 of the 22 mile in the 42 chain ring. The 40 I wanted to try out maybe only needed to be a 36. BUT! with some load and really steep gravel, maybe...

Still learning what I have created on the Mongrel, only my 3rd semi real ride being in CA all last week.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6540
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/22/19 2:28 AM

Seriously? 4 digit for a groupo? Ok, I know itís Record. Still...

Iím working and Iím still not tempted. If I retire tomorrow, Iíll have time in my hand to pick up whatever I actually NEED for half of that!

Somehow, Iím totally turned off by this march towards more and more gear. I grudgingly went from 7 to 8, then quickly skip forward to 9. And thatís where I stayed, happily, for 20 years! (Ok, only semi-happily, I donít care for decreasing the gaps. I want more range, which really hasnít seen much improvement after all these years!)

I suppose itís not that much money in the grand scheme of things. Just donít see the point. I havenít seen the point of going from 8 to 9. So am totally unmotivated to go beyond. One day, Iíll upgrade to whatever is prevailing setups. But Iím never going to get Record.

Iím far more interested in disc brakes, tubeless tires and e-shifting. Those are REAL advances, game changers.

Iím due for a new bike, or two. But havenít seen anything that compels my parting with my money yet. Still waiting for new entries.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4376
Location: Nashua, NH

5/22/19 9:07 AM

That's cheap for a high-end grouppo

I guess you haven't been watching the bike parts market. ;-)

You tout electronic shifting and disc brakes as advances, but apparently you haven't looked at the price of any electronic gruppos with disc brakes, as they're quite expensive. For example, the list price for Dura Ace is ~$3,000, SRAM Red Etap and Force AXS are ~$2500 and Ultegra is ~$2000.

Campy gruppos have always been more expensive than roughly comparable Japanese gruppos. For that matter, pretty much everything bike-related coming out of Italy commands a price premium over Asian-made goods. For those of us who prefer the way Campy shifters work, there's no alternative, so we have to suck it up and shell out the extra or wait until it's on sale.

As for upgrading the number of cogs, I agree with you that it doesn't make sense unless you can get the gearing you want. That's one of the reasons that I'm still using Campy 10-speed and won't upgrade to 12-speed until cassettes with 12 or 13 tooth starting cogs are available. Hopefully, that will happen soon, as my 11-year-old, 10-speed stuff is pretty worn and key shifter rebuild parts are no longer available.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/22/19 10:15 AM

"For those of us who prefer the way Campy shifters work, there's no alternative"

Key for me. I have quantifiable hand comfort with the Asymmetrical 2011-14 11 speed ERGOs. I originally got the Chorus to put on the Colnago Victory frameset when it came back to me. After riding, I knew I was going to phase out my Shimano gear for that era Ergos/Campy.

Had 9 Speed Record, and have ridden 10s ERGOs, for me I got no additional hand comfort, until 11s.

The fact that all my 11s Shimano Wheels work perfectly with the Campy helped the transition.

Considering I now have 11s SR 80th Ani Group, SR, a Chorus and a Chorus SR mix... The 12 speed is not alluring to me. And I have not accepted that 4 arm crank, although on a new modern machine it would be fine.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/22/19 11:02 AM

"That's cheap for a high-end grouppo"

That is a good sale and substantial markdown for sure.

The Lynskey Helix I nailed with only a few rides on it for 1400.00. Now that was cheap for a SR Groupo, and the 80th Ani SR group no less. Seen these on eBay for $3k.

Then I bought the BMW M Race bike for 700.00 with SR that looked as if it was never ridden. Just got some parts to sell off. Both bike had 1000.00 wheelsets as well.

So resale, especially for road stuff is worst [best for me] I have ever seen. Everything is Gravel disc bikes, and in spades.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6540
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/22/19 11:04 AM


quote:
I guess you haven't been watching the bike parts market. ;-)


Yes and no.

As my interest lies in e-shifting, I'm fully aware of the price tag. Hence my "waiting game".

Other than disc brake, what other significant advantages does the new groupo offers?

(I consider e-shifting really being a completely different groupo)

Most of my bikes have "mixed level" components. In the same family for compatibility reason but different "level" (e.g. Chorus+Daytona, Ultegra+105)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/22/19 11:08 AM

April, are you finding more interest in a specific brands 'e' group over the others?

"Other than disc brake, what other significant advantages does the new groupo offers? "

Just really more speeds and less holes in the ratios one gear to the next. If you are on 8 speed and happy not something which may cause you interest presumably.

IMO, as far as disc brakes, ads significant weight. So unless the bike will get used in wet/muck and mire, a 700c disc is a good brake. As in a rim brake on a 700 wheel. So the advantage there is a wet thing the way I see it. Not having to get your rims replaced from brake wear seems like a future saving of significance?

But a disc bike will also most likely fit bigger tires. even the go fast disc bike should fit at least a 28. If you deem that an advantage or not is subjective of course.

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3630
Location: Brooklyn, NY

5/22/19 2:42 PM

I'm a total ignoramus when it comes to bottom brackets. I have no idea which bottom bracket option would work for me. How can I tell what kind of bottom bracket I have on my current bike? I assume I need to replace with the same . . .

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3630
Location: Brooklyn, NY

5/22/19 2:43 PM

They have a sweet deal on the Super Record 12 also.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6194
Location: Maine

5/22/19 3:43 PM

Bass ackward

Parkin you need to select the group you want and then pick a frame to fit it.

Iíd provide serious advice but I really donít know anything about modern bbs either.

As to e-shifting, itís not a game changer for me. I have e-tap, which is fine, but IMHO no better than Chorus mechanical and slightly slower. You donít have to maintain cables, but I spend more time charging/ changing batteries than maintaining cables.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6540
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/22/19 4:33 PM


quote:
Parkin you need to select the group you want and then pick a frame to fit it.

Totally! :D


quote:
disc bike will also most likely fit bigger tires

THATís the reason. Wet performance to me is an ďaddedĒ bonus on top of the above reason.

Frankly, I donít care about the weight of my bike. I have a good 50lb advantage over the average club rider. I can add fender and panniers on top of disc brake and still come out ahead!

E-shifting: shifting from multiple hand positions when e-shifters stop costing an arm and a leg.

And being a computer geek (not just software, Iíve done some robotic/automation), I will confidently predict we will have ďsmart shifterĒ within my lifetime! The computer look at the cadence and speed, decides itís time to upshift or downshift. Will ďlearnĒ your personal preference of cadence too.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6194
Location: Maine

5/22/19 4:54 PM

Different shifting positions

Iím sure that may be valid depending on your riding style (and maybe hand size). Iím nearly always on the hoods, can shift fine with levers on the drops, and shifting from the tops is easy enough on the very rare occasions I would do so. So that doesnít register with me. Obviously, it may with you.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4376
Location: Nashua, NH

5/22/19 4:59 PM

Parkin, is your BB threaded into the frame? If so, your problem is solved, as there's only one threaded BB standard that's more than a few years old. Pretty much every crank on the market has a threaded BB option, even the newest 30mm spindle cranks.

If you're not sure, tell us what the make, model and year the frame is and we can probably figure it out.

April, automatic shifting has already been done, its just not on the market at the moment. IIRC, Fairwheel Bikes did it.

Dan, I'm with you. I don't spend enough time on the tops of the bars to make additional shifter buttons worth it.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17236
Location: Portland, OR

5/22/19 6:19 PM

"How can I tell what kind of bottom bracket I have on my current bike?"

What 'IS' you current bike? And current chainset?

"Dan, I'm with you. I don't spend enough time on the tops of the bars to make additional shifter buttons worth it."

I really liked the Climber Di2 Switch once I reversed it so I could use my index finger front of the bar. I kept hitting it with my thumb all the time when installed as designed. I spend a lot of time on top just either side of stem to make myself narrow[er]. ;) I put the sprinters on the Domane and hit those all the time too. But usually only when moving the bike around, not riding it...

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6540
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/22/19 8:37 PM

Precisely because I ride on top of the bar A LOT!

I commute by bike a lot. Also, a good portion of my rides are going ďsomewhere interestingĒ, again, Iíd like to sit up to see the sight beyond just the road in front of my handlebar.

Now, if you argue I donít really NEED to shift when commuting and sightseeing, you probably have a point. I donít ďneedĒ it, but itíd be nice to have. A lot more useful than a couple of extra cogs, I dare say.

And, when I take that same bike into steep single track connecting 2 nearby roads, the ability to shift with hands on top of bars becomes a lot more critical, a lot more than just a luxury.

Brian, does the Fairwheel automatic shifting knows your favorite cadence? Or does it shift when *it* wants to rather than when YOU would have shift?

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