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Supreme Court decitions, SHS, RBG etc
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/27/18 8:23 AM

Supreme Court decitions, SHS, RBG etc

Or any other politics separate from Trump bashing, that is.

I've said it often here. I don't see Donald Trump is THE problem but rather the symptoms of "the" problem(s). What that problem(s) is/are, is less clear.

-- The Supreme court decision:

With a mild, narrowly focus opinion and a strongly worded dissenting opinions, it's "interesting" to me. Clearly, 5 justices believe all the rhetoric of the president is NOT relevant when considering his action. We have a lot of lawyers on this board. Care to discuss? And for the opinionated non-lawyer kind (yours truly included), what do you think the decision imply?

When Trump got elected, I wasn't overly alarmed. I believed in our "system" of check-and-balance that Trump won't be let loose. (unlike many who voted for him and believed he will act more "presidential" once in office, I knew he would behave as he talked) However, the past year showed congress was unwilling to stand up to him. Now the majority of the Supreme Court declare they endorse his extremist policy using whatever rational they can find.

The Sarah Huckabee Sanders saga:

It's one thing for a restaurant owner to refuse serving a Trump mouthpiece. But to actively and explicitly call for harassing all Trump administration staffs seems extreme. Technically, Sarah Huckabee sanders is only "working" for Trump. The opinion she expressed, however unpleasant, is technically not her own but that of Donald Trumps. Am I right or am I wrong on that one?

Bit of disclaimer, I personally know someone who work in his administration, at a much lower level of non-political appointments. (but like all who work in the current administration, their position can disappear by a few taps of fingers) We disagree in some topics. But by and large I enjoyed our exchange of different opinions. I would hate to see every government staff in the current administration besieged by mobs

- Ruth Bader Ginsberg:

Anyone seen the movie? Like? Dislike? Has she gotten "more controversial", or is that what she has always been, zeroing in on challenging issues that have larger implication?


I know this is all over the place. But I want to get away from constant re-hashing of whatever the latest Trump debacle, which actually detracts from what's really happening in the country.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3200
Location: Springfield

6/27/18 11:25 AM

SC: That vote's why Mitch McConnell held nominations in committee for over a year. His justification? "Let the people speak." --ignoring that the people had spoken, twice, and elected Obama.

(Sidebar: NY congressional race Ocasio-Cortez upset Rep. Joseph Crowley - The youth are finding their voice, GOOD.)

SHS: I did a search for: "trump rally call for violence" It's very easy to find candidate trump shouting into a microphone for violence against protestors. I don't like it from either side but you reap what you sow. (too casual assessment of my opinion, but brief)

RBG: Didn't see movie. Brilliant, experienced, a noble voice.

"All over the place" - No problem

BTW: I haven't heard "tea party" lately but I think it's the coalescing force.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4161
Location: Nashua, NH

6/27/18 11:56 AM

Which Supreme Court decisions are you referring to? There have been quite a few lately.

Abusing employees of politicians you don't like when they are just conducting themselves in their private life is wrong, period. When Sanders is on the podium, she's fair game. When she's out having dinner, she's just another customer and should be treated as such. Maxine Waters is a moron, but that's not exactly news. If someone harassed her in public like Sanders, she'd be screaming "racism!" and/or "sexism!" from the rooftops. What a hypocrite (again, not really news)!

To me, Ginsberg is like Bernie Sanders, someone who I don't generally agree with, but whom I can at least respect as an honest, good person with intelligence and integrity. I hope I'm still as together as she is when I'm her age.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/27/18 12:27 PM


quote:

Which Supreme Court decisions are you referring to? There have been quite a few lately

Yesterday's, upholding the "Muslim ban"


quote:
SC: That vote's why Mitch McConnell held nominations in committee for over a year.

Not so fast.

Judges can have personal opinion about social issues. But in court, they're not supposed to use their personal liking to dictate their decision. However, they may interpret the law, in this case the constitution, in a distinct style. My understanding is, a "conservative" vs "liberal" justice are in how they interpret the constitution, not how they interpret social values.

Say, a "conservative" value of the constitution is individual rights protected against unreasonable government intrusion. So 2 men having sex is not the government's business, for example.

Judges in all level had to make decision they don't personally like. Because that's the law, or the constitution.

However, is THIS decision a clear indicates those conservative justices are ready to let a clearly bigotry President implement a clearly religiously based policy? Or perhaps the justices themselves are scared (of perceived Muslim terrorists, or reprisal from a vindictive President)?

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3200
Location: Springfield

6/27/18 1:01 PM

M.F. (news)

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4360
Location: metro-motown-area

6/27/18 4:34 PM

buh-bye kennedy

i'm guessing brian is over the moon right now.

McConnell needs to be the recipient of a stiff throat-punch.


Last edited by walter on 6/27/18 5:07 PM; edited 1 time in total

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/27/18 5:06 PM

Iím sure many are over the Moon today. But many of them will also live to see the long term results, which may come years later to haunt many of them.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4161
Location: Nashua, NH

6/28/18 5:47 AM

I'm not "over the moon", as nobody has been nominated to replace him yet. I'm mostly just surprised that it's not Ginsberg retiring.

As for the travel ban ruling, the court decided it based on the merits rather than the hyperbolic rhetoric and hysterical backlash, which seems like the prudent thing to do. Keeping it narrowly focused is smart, as granting sweeping powers to ANY President is dangerous. It's especially so with "one who would be king", like Trump.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/28/18 7:42 AM

But not as smart and prudent as striking it down!

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3606
Location: Brooklyn, NY

6/28/18 10:34 AM

Constitutional rights don't stand much of a chance in the face of an argument based on "national security".

That's the teaching of this case, as well as Korematsu which, ironically, the Justices here finally "overturn". But, consistency is not this court's strong point. See https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/6/27/17509248/travel-ban-religious-discrimination-christian-muslim-double-standard for an interesting comparison of the court's analysis in this case compared to its analysis in the cake baker case.

I have Yemeni neighbors, I see what this executive order has done to their family, and there is no justification for it. They have extended family still in Yemen and their inability to extricate them from that country is unconscionable. And this is a family of community leaders whose kids are cops, military reservists and teachers. Yes, they are Muslim, but their hospitality, charity and compassion for others makes them more "Christian" than many of the avowedly Christians leading this country.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/28/18 12:15 PM

Interestingly, Justice Kennedy's will likely be remembered most for his decision on the "Muslim ban" as his last major decision. His legacy as a SC Justice.

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 2927
Location: Midland, MI

6/28/18 3:09 PM

Sanders incident

First off, this is NOT an invocation of Godwin's law! But here is a thought experiment for those who think that people like Miller, Sessions, Sanders, Nielsjen, et. al. should not be confronted in public:

What if, in the very early days of the Nazi movement in Germany, the German public had called these cretins out in public. Would that have put an end to their political operation? In the "silence is acquiescence" concept, how do you address the unacceptable behavior of public officials? Waiting for the next election sometimes means waiting too long.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4360
Location: metro-motown-area

6/28/18 5:14 PM

<img src=https://scontent.fdet1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36359964_1762214263858777_1854009537686667264_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&oh=95ac60e6a19879552e8ade603a70860a&oe=5BAD217C>

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/28/18 6:13 PM


quote:
In the "silence is acquiescence" concept, how do you address the unacceptable behavior of public officials? Waiting for the next election sometimes means waiting too long.

I'm all for speaking up against unacceptable behavior of public officials!

There're many of venues to do that. The massive multi-city Women's March, which had been attended by plenty of men! I worked next to the City Hall of NYC, every week there's some protects going on. Their banners can be seen all over the place. Some are small, some are attended by sizable crowd.

The "Sanders incident" ended up being a publicity stunt that's covered in all national media. But if there're such uncivil "incidents" every week, the novelty will soon wear off, and coverage disappear.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/28/18 7:10 PM

I'm also in favor of speaking up in individual interactions in private.

I'm not shy to confront those who embraces bigotry. And I take every opportunity to remind those who made a devil's pack with the extreme right the "whole package" they got in return.

I also remind my liberal friends the more extreme Trump's policy, the more he wakes up the complacent moderate liberals to come to the join the rank on the left (I myself didn't pay half as much attention to politics before Trump's election).

One good example of it is the #METOO movement. Now all women who had ever been harassed realized things won't get better "as time goes by" because Donald Trump will start to move it backward to please his base. So they should start to speak up, NOW!

Now that the Supreme Court is in danger of reversing Row v Wade, it's a great rallying call for women (and men) who care about abortion right to vote for Democratic Senators and Congressmen in the midterm election. Especially women in the battleground districts. It could very well be their daughter's life that are at stake.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4161
Location: Nashua, NH

6/29/18 5:36 AM

Kerry, two things:

1- The Nazi comparison is WAY over the top.
2- How do you know that nobody harassed Hitler publicly early on? Wasn't Mein Kampf essentially an enormous whine about how he was ridiculed and abused most of his life? That's what drove him to incredible heights of viciousness and cruelty once he got into power, isn't it?

---

I really think it's unfair to criticize Kennedy for leaving the court. Whether you like his decisions or not - he has plenty of lovers and haters across the political spectrum - he has served this country honorably for 30 years. For that, he deserves respect and gratitude, not ridicule. He has every right to retire and live out the rest of his life as he sees fit. If it had been Ginsberg who retired instead, would people be ragging on her?

It somewhat amusing that liberals are suddenly trumpeting how important he was to their causes, considering that he was overall a very conservative justice who only occasionally deviated from traditional conservative positions. His successor will likely be more reliably conservative, but it's not going to be a tectonic shift.

As for Roe v. Wade, there's reason to be concerned as there has been for quite a while (I'm a pro-choice conservative, BTW), but the all-out panic that's being displayed by many is ridiculous. Agree with him or not, Chief Justice Roberts has a respect for precedent and "settled law", and I doubt that he'll allow the court to wade into the hornet's nest of an attempted repeal, which would create an enormous backlash against the court and severe social upheaval.

As for the social/religious conservatives in Congress, they're sure to try to advance their agenda, but that's ironically when liberals should rejoice, as there's no other issue I can think of that will energize their base more and likely create an electoral reversal of fortune for Republicans. I don't particularly want to see that happen, but it probably will. If it drives the religious zealots out of office, that'll be a good thing in the long run.

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3606
Location: Brooklyn, NY

6/29/18 7:33 AM

I don't see anyone ragging on Kennedy for his decision to retire. Liberals will miss him because he was seemingly the most flexible of the conservative bloc, a role that Roberts may assume, although Roberts is demonstrably to the right of Kennedy.

I agree with Brian's assessment that Roberts is not likely to overrule Roe v. Wade.

Kennedy was instrumental in the absurdity of Citizens United.

It'll be interesting to see how much deference and respect a conservative Court will give to the other two branches of government when they are in Democratic control.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3200
Location: Springfield

6/29/18 8:58 AM

"comparison is WAY over the top." - let's talk slippery slope, that's a familiar metaphor

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/29/18 9:55 AM


quote:
As for the social/religious conservatives in Congress, they're sure to try to advance their agenda, but that's ironically when liberals should rejoice, as there's no other issue I can think of that [bill energize their base more and likely create an electoral reversal of fortune for Republicans. I don't particularly want to see that happen, but it probably will.[/b] If it drives the religious zealots out of office, that'll be a good thing in the long run.

Be careful what you wish, AGAIN.

I'm a moderate liberal. I will rejoice WHEN the "electoral fortune reversal" happens. However...

Given the "success" of the tea party, and the willingness of moderate conservatives to support the right wing extremist ("devil's pack"), the only way the left can turn it around is to make a "devil's pack" with the left wing extremes. (Just look at the success of that 28 year old last Tuesday in NYC, displacing a more moderate liberal.)

If Brian and those like him are counting on the liberals to take back the house with only moderate agenda without going all the way to the left extreme, I'm sorry to point out it's nothing but an illusion. It's a luxury we no longer have by what they did in this last election.

It's funny the moderate conservatives don't hesitate to embrace the extreme right, but are expecting the moderate liberals NOT to do the same. It's even funnier they expect us to rescue them from their pack with the religious right!

Frankly, without the support of moderate right, moderate left simply can't counter-balance the extreme right. The only way to go IS to support the extreme left the same way as the right did. We may end up with someone WAY LEFT of Bernie Sanders!

It's very likely it will be much more drastic than just driving a few religious zealots out of the office. Even after Trump's election, I had hope it wouldn't come to that. But the Republican controlled house had steadily pushed towards that extreme. After what happens in the Supreme Court this week, I no longer have doubt on how it will go. There will be chaotic gyration between the extreme left and right for years to come. This IS the beginning of the end. The only question left is whether the "end" is only of America losing its power position, or the entire west losing the same.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4360
Location: metro-motown-area

6/29/18 1:15 PM

"One of my proudest moments was when I looked Barack Obama in the eye and I said, 'Mr. President, you will not fill the Supreme Court vacancy.' "
- Sen. Mitch McConnell and GOP standard-bearer

what an absolute sack of sh!t. f*cking disgusting.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/29/18 4:41 PM

He maybe a sack of shit. But there're always plenty of such in existence left and right.

What's telling is he's the Republican chosen to be their leader. That tells you the kind of people who elected him and the rest of Republicans into the office.

I'm sure over the history, there're plenty of individual who are even more crazy than Hitler. But only one was elected to be the head of a country by a crowd of ...

They paid for it with their life, their blood and all the destruction. Except we were supposed to have learned the lesson. I guess 80 years is long enough for people to forget...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4161
Location: Nashua, NH

6/29/18 6:48 PM

It looks like this discussion is headed into the gutter, too.

April, I have no idea where you got what you did from what I said. If the Democrats regain control of the government, I fully expect them to push an extreme left agenda, as that's what they always do. The political pendulum will continue to swing back and forth and probably to greater extremes than it has in the past. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that and I've seen several swings in my lifetime. The real question is whether there will ever be a strong middle ground again. Will civility ever return or is our future one of ever increasing vitriol? Will there even be such a thing as "statesmanship"?

At some point there has to be a limit and a reckoning, hopefully followed by a return to sanity. We'll see.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6420
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/29/18 8:46 PM

Brian, you don't know what "extreme left" really is!

You didn't spend 20 years of your life under a communist government You never live in a socialist economic system. You never seen what "equal pay for equal work" can be abused to the point that it becomes "as little work as possible since no one is getting paid worth much"...

What you think the current Democratic party is pushing a left agenda, wait until enough Otesio Cortez got elected and with an equally erratic President.

I didn't think Trump would be president. I didn't think Row v Wade would be in question. But they're now. The same can happen on the left too. I don't like to see it. But given the choice of President Trump and the religious right, I'll take my chances with the left a lot more extreme than you can even imagine. Just like you had done with the extreme right.

But you seem to think the current right wing "success" is business as usual. It's because you can't see what's wrong with it. But I could see both extremes. I'm ready to embrace the far extreme left, with my eyes wide open. Because I no longer have the luxury NOT to.

As for whether the middle ground still exist? You with your own action had departed from that middle ground. It's only reasonable to expect others on the opposite side to do the same as you. So, you have your answer. No, there's no more middle ground. Not after the last election and what happened last week in the Supreme Court.

People are still dancing around the topic because they don't want to face the reality that the apocalyptic is already here. Like many Jews in Germany, they didn't believe the worst could come so they didn't leave when they still had a chance... Iím not talking about Trump being Hitler (he may be or may not), but we just got proof the conditions is ripe for someone like Hitler to step into the vacuum.


Last edited by April on 6/30/18 9:56 AM; edited 4 times in total

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4360
Location: metro-motown-area

6/30/18 6:29 AM

"Will there even be such a thing as "statesmanship"? "

methinks o'bama is the last of the line for the foreseeable future.

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henoch
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 1578

6/30/18 9:41 AM

I had those words on the tip of of my tongue, Walter beat to it.

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