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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3223
Location: Springfield

6/20/18 11:28 AM

The most humble, the most human, the most responsive, the most compassionate in history, ever

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

6/20/18 7:30 PM

bryan

was it worth it?

<img src=https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/32723002_1602107819838984_969629050786021376_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=c4f109a80607fe665089d49c9599efac&oe=5BB9F656>


Last edited by walter on 6/21/18 7:52 AM; edited 1 time in total

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

6/21/18 5:44 AM

As I've repeatedly said,I'll take the short-term pain for the long-term gain of a conservative Supreme Court. So in a word, yes. Hillary would have just been a different kind of nightmare.

Trump is an anomaly and once he's thoroughly discredited and either removed from office or defeated in the next election (hopefully in the primary), we won't see the likes of him again in our lifetimes. Policies can be reversed, allies assuaged, agencies returned to their proper missions and the presidency restored to it's former prominence. The Union will survive and prosper, post-Trump.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

6/21/18 7:48 AM

from your mouth to the flying spaghetti monster's ears.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3223
Location: Springfield

6/21/18 9:06 AM

Seeking Asylum?

One informed analysis of B+'s exec order:

Reach border at port of entry: Expect "All full. Come back"
Reach border at non-port of entry:

  • First time: arrest/ misdemeanor
  • Second time: arrest/ felony
  • Plead guilty to any arrest to cut through red tape and get back to family?
  • You will be sent back
  • Fight charge/assert asylum?
  • You will be detained in a jail, separation from family
  • Needless to say that reflects poorly on your asylum claim
June 20, Seth Meyers says VOTE YouTube

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Marc N.
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 448
Location: Israel

6/22/18 2:18 AM

Not so fast

Brian - I think you seriously under estimate the consequences of the Trump presidency. The hatred and bigotry that this despicable excuse of a human being unleashes on a daily basis will be with us long after he ceases being president. It isn`t easy putting the genie back in the bottle once he`s out.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1131
Location: South of Heaven

6/22/18 5:29 AM

The America first doctrine will have long term consequences. It has POed all of our Allies, those that have namely helped establish peace, world order, and economic prosperity since WW2.

As for the Supreme Court, Trump's pick, Gorsuch has already sided with the liberal justices for a decision on immigration back in April of this year. The one longstanding problem with immigration, that predates Trump, and gets no attention and certainly will not anytime with the big heaping mess now, is an insufficient supply of immigration judges. There is no mention of this by Trump.

The hot issue now is child separation. Next will be internment camps due to the backlog of court cases and lack of judges.

Likewise, as I commented here before, there is a huge list of vacancies for federal district court positions, too. Cases do not get to the supreme court until they are heard by a lower court, predominately that occurring in the district court.

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3609
Location: Brooklyn, NY

6/22/18 7:00 AM

I'm afraid what we're seeing here is a kickstart to the inevitable decline of the American empire, similar to what happened to Britain.

Between the emergence of China as the dominant world economic power, and the political isolation of America that is taking place, America's role as a world leader will decline.

I think Trump's success has had a significant role in invigorating far right parties around the world. That will cause more harm that will take decades to rectify.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6442
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/22/18 8:15 AM

I can't decide if Trump is realty THE problem? Or rather, he's just the symptom of a problem.

The "backlash" of the extreme right has been growing, underground, for quite some time. Then there're those represented by Brian, who aren't exactly "extreme" but was willing to join hands with the extreme as a price to pay for getting what they view as their core value.

The culmination is the winning of Trump in the presidential election.

When Trump got elected, I wasn't too alarmed. My trust in the American democracy led me to believe Trump would be constrained by the 2 houses. That trust had been proved to be misplaced. The Re publicans had proved to be totally spineless in standing up to Trump.

Many had pointed to the example of Germany in the 30's, when the then German "elite" believed they could "constrain" Hitler from doing much damage. We all know how that ended.

Bottom line, it's the wish of nearly half of the population that wishes to go quite far to the right (perhaps due to the lack of competent representation of the moderate right). That wish is REAL. It's not going away.

I don't know if Brian will be disappointed when the right wing tile continues even after Trump leaves office. (it may even accelerate after Trump, with even more effective right wing leader given the awakening of the extreme right voters). While the rest of us will be distressed with the beginning of the end of the American Empire as PLee puts it.

One thing I'm not comfortable contemplating: Britain only ceded its world power position after a long, bloody and ruinous world war. How would the US cede its dominant? Another world war, in the nuclear age on less, is beyond imagination.


Last edited by April on 6/22/18 11:01 AM; edited 3 times in total

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 2936
Location: Midland, MI

6/22/18 8:44 AM

Two issues

Really two issues here:

Immigration was best summed up many years ago by an editorial cartoon depicting a huge border wall with a huddle of immigrants in front of it. On the wall were two signs: KEEP OUT! and NOW HIRING. At the current US unemployment rate, there are fewer people unemployed than there are illegal immigrants. The US economy depends on these folks but refuses to acknowledge it through a rational immigration policy because there are so many people scared of losing their status as the dominant culture.

Which brings us to the second issue. Trump (and all that comes with him) is not about economics but about culture. He appeals to those fearing "the other" and a loss of status. Think of the poor white person who at least got to look down on blacks. With the engine of Fox "News" and all the other right wing media (e.g. Sinclair) you have a steady drip of not even thinly disguised racism, bigotry, xenophobia, etc. fed to people predisposed to think that way. 50% of white Evangelicals believe that they face discrimination worse than that faced by Muslims in America.

This isn't going away anytime soon. Politicians, rather than accepting their role as leaders, instead are the panderers in chief at every level. Instead of explaining that "this is what we need to do to make our country better" they say "THOSE people are out to destroy your way of life." And people vote for them.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

6/22/18 2:34 PM

a distinction without a difference

"Then there're those represented by Brian, who aren't exactly "extreme" but was willing to join hands with the extreme as a price to pay for getting what they view as their core value."

brian-likes made a deal with the devil by joining hands with, enabling, empowering, and validating IQ45 and the extreme right.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

6/22/18 8:20 PM

Not so fast, Walter!

I despise the extreme right as much as I do the extreme left and it's hard to express how much I loathe Trump. While I can accept the accusation of making a deal with the devil, when it comes to "joining hands with, enabling, empowering, and validating IQ45 and the extreme right", I have three words for you:

NO FUCKING WAY!

Trust me, you DON'T want to make this personal. I am not going to be your scapegoat or your whipping boy!

Got it?

If the shitheads in your Democratic party hadn't nominated that pompous, entitled, detestable bitch Hillary, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? If you want someone to blame, go look in the mirror!


Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 6/22/18 8:33 PM; edited 2 times in total

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

6/22/18 8:27 PM

unintended consequences

the facts and outcomes speak for themselves. nothing personal, lots more are in the same boat -- e.g., most of the GOP.

Last edited by walter on 6/22/18 8:34 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

6/22/18 8:32 PM

Yeah, it's real convenient to say that after the fact. It's also really easy to broad brush everyone you don't agree with as being an extremist. You complain about the polarization in this country, then you foster it with those kinds of comments.

Hypocrisy anyone?

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6442
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/22/18 9:06 PM


quote:
If the shitheads in your Democratic party hadn't nominated that pompous, entitled, detestable bitch Hillary,

So the Republicans nominated Trump but blames the Democrats for nominating Hillary for your own failing?

Have YOU looked into a mirror before asking Walter to do the same?

Is that so different than the fervent Trump supporters who blame the Mexican for their own plight? It's always someone else's fault, isn't it? Anyone who's different from yourself! If that difference isn't racial, it is their political view that makes them the perfect scapegoat?

Perhaps had the Republicans hadn't nominated Trump, many of the Democrats would have join them in electing a "good" Republican? Or is such a thing exist? Hint: just look at the Senate and their voting record to find a "bright spot"!

It wasn't a secret there was talk about NOT nominating trump. Except, which Republican could they possibly have nominated over Trump? Better than Hillary, hey?

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

6/23/18 5:17 AM

"it's real convenient to say that after the fact"

convenient indeed. "i voted for IQ45, but i hate him and wish he were gone."

i dont say and have never said everyone i disagree with is extremist. i do say people that voted for IQ45 despite not "supporting him" have provided de-facto support for and enabling extremists. big difference, <i>ne pensez-vous pas?</i>

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

6/23/18 6:30 AM

Once again you missed the point, April. Democrats whine about Trump, but they nominated someone who was arguably the ONLY candidate that could have lost to Trump. They have no one but themselves to blame. She was promoted by the party heads and they actively campaigned against Sanders.

I never wanted Trump as the Republican nominee (I voted for Kasich) and neither did the heads of the party, but they refused to defy the apparent will of the people. While I at times wish they had, it would have caused a huge uproar, lawsuits and all kinds of other complications. Almost any of the other primary candidates would have been better than Trump and probably would have won easily.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6442
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/23/18 7:35 AM

Brian, you missed MY point, which is the Republican party base choosed Trump over all others!

There could only be two reasons for Trump winning the primary:

1) Republican party don’t have ANY decent candidates

If that’s the case, what right do you have to complain about the other party?

Or Are you saying the Dems are better than the Republicans and you were hoping they could save your party from your worst nightmare? If that was your belief, you should have done YOUR PART personally and voted for Hillary. But you did not.

2) Republican voters are rotten to the core.

That happens to be my assessment. And I had repeated said the winning of Trump is only the symptom of the problem.

Sorry Brian, reading these “justifications” you’ve come up with led me to believe YOU ARE PART OF THAT CORE.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

6/23/18 9:33 AM

No April, I'm not part of "that core". No, I don't believe that the Democrats are better than the Republicans or that they could save anyone or anything. Hillary's candidacy was the reason that I, and many others like me, were forced to vote for Trump, someone that we despise. Voting for Hillary was not an option, period.

Apparently you're not capable of grasping that.

The Republicans had plenty of good candidates (arguably too many overall), but they all underestimated Trump and didn't take him seriously until it was too late. If they - and the party heads - had gone after him from the beginning with the same vigor that they went after each other, he never would have gotten the nomination. They ALL screwed up, big time!

I do agree that Trump is just a symbol of an extreme right-wing resurgence that's been happening globally, the start of which pre-dates his presidency. One could reasonably argue that it's real roots are with Putin. It will eventually be discredited and it's proponents forced back under their respective rocks, but it's going to take some time. It will likely happen faster here, since we have not declined into an authoritarian regime that rewrites laws/constitutions and openly suppresses opposition. The same is true of the stable European democracies.

Russia is a lost cause and Turkey could go the same way tomorrow if Erdogan wins. As for the rest of the world, who knows?

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6442
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/23/18 8:11 PM


quote:
The Republicans had plenty of good candidates (arguably too many overall), but they all underestimated Trump and didn't take him seriously until it was too late. If they - and the party heads - had gone after him from the beginning with the same vigor that they went after each other, he never would have gotten the nomination. They ALL screwed up, big time!

I happen to think that's also the Democrat's problem. They never took Trump seriously enough. Even Hillary was counting on people so disgusted by him they wouldn't vote for him. She was wrong just as the entire Democratic party AND the Republican party election machine.

But many DID vote for Trump. It has nothing to do with Hillary. For if they dislike Hillary, they didn't have to vote for Trump. Indeed, the vote for independent was an all time high. It came from people who purposely "throw their vote away".

What's important is enough voter VOTED FOR TRUMP regardless of who else is on the Democratic ticket! That's the rotten core of the Republican party. They also elected the Republican Congress and Senate majority that are too scared do a damn thing to constrain Trump after he's sworn in.

Those same voters WILL NOT go back under any rock. They're now embolden. They will be with us for a long time to come. And they will continue to be a force to be reckon with. Your wishful thinking is entirely unrealistic.

History will prove whether you're right or I'm right. Except we don't have the luxury to look back in the comfort of a library. WE ARE MAKING HISTORY RIGHT NOW. Your choice and mine will be judged in due course. That is, if we live to see it before Trump blow up the world in a nuclear apocalypses.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3223
Location: Springfield

6/24/18 6:45 AM

Brian, HRC has such an obviously false veneer that people confuse it with her somehow being the devil incarnate. DJT, OTOH has such a refined veneer the same people are willing to invest their dreams with him even when they fully acknowledge his decades of disloyalty, deceit, duplicity, bankruptcy, and general corruption.

To borrow your words:
"Apparently you're not capable of grasping that. "

April, I know you didn't intend it this way but consider this twist to part of your argument: The only votes "thrown away" are the votes not cast. To vote for a third party is legitimate. What HRC lost were the votes not cast, those people who wanted her win but didn't support her.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

6/24/18 7:02 AM

https://www.thenation.com/article/this-political-theorist-predicted-the-rise-of-trumpism-his-name-was-hunter-s-thompson/

"As long as he continues to offend and irritate elites, and as long as he refuses to play by certain rules of decorum—heaven forfend, the president-elect says ill-conceived things on Twitter!—Trump will still command loyalty. It’s the ethic, not the policy, that matters most."

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6442
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/24/18 7:15 PM

daddy-o


quote:

The only votes "thrown away" are the votes not cast. To vote for a third party is legitimate. What HRC lost were the votes not cast, those people who wanted her win but didn't support her.


"legitimate" but wasted nonetheless. BOTH are wasted.

To "make a statement" by voting third party/independent is a luxury only if BOTH party's candidates are legitimate, qualified. When one of the candidate is clearly the devil, EVERY vote AGAINST him counts.

Those who didn't vote, I don't think they're complaining about Trump now. They probably don't care. (if they care even a little, they would have voted)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

6/25/18 5:37 AM

"What's important is enough voter VOTED FOR TRUMP regardless of who else is on the Democratic ticket! That's the rotten core of the Republican party."

So everyone who doesn't agree with you is "rotten" eh? SCREW YOU April! That's the kind of pompous, elitist bullshit that drove people to Trump in the first place! Keep perpetuating it and guess what you're going to get?

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16795
Location: Portland, OR

6/25/18 8:10 AM

Yawn..

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