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question for trump voters
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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

1/26/18 2:07 PM

good stuff!

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

1/27/18 6:32 PM

Walter, I don't need to reconcile anything

As I have repeatedly said, I am not a Trump supporter. I voted for him for one reason and with the expectation that he will not complete his first term. I can't stand him! He's a detestable excuse for a human being and an absolute embarrassment to to the office and the country. The sooner he is gone, the better!

That said, I will comment on what I believe to be his rationale. As I've said before, I'm not convinced that he's actually a racist. I just think he has no respect for anyone and as a typical bully, he'll single out the weakest, most vulnerable people to abuse. When it comes to white supremacists (who I also detest), it seems to me that it's a clear cut case of him refusing to speak ill of anyone who supports him. It's all about feeding his colossal ego and his insatiable need to win (at least in his own warped mind). He cannot survive without being in the spotlight and believing that he is adored by millions. He is a deeply troubled - or disturbed - individual.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

1/28/18 8:27 AM

rationale sounds like...

...what evangelicals apparently use. pinch their noses, set aside their beliefs...as long as 45 does what their bidding they'll tolerate pretty much anything, he gets their support and vote.

that happens with all politicians to some extent, but 45's voters/supporters take the cake!

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Matthew Currie
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 768
Location: Vermont

1/28/18 10:06 AM

Sorry, I can't see a reasonable way to separate voting for a person and supporting him. Even if one assumes he would not complete his term, it's a vote for Pence, and a presumption that either of those would be better than the opposition is, as far as I can see it, a statement of substance. If you despise all the candidates, you can abstain from voting at all, but if you vote, you vote for someone, not against someone else, and if you get what you voted for it's time to eat your own dog food. Voting for Trump for any reason other than support reminds me a bit of a teenager committing suicide to prove he really means business.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16790
Location: Portland, OR

1/28/18 11:06 AM

"vote for someone, not against someone else"

I suspect the percent of 'against votes' is quantifiable. And/or folks just say that was the methodology because they do not want to admit the vote they made, for one or more reasons.

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Matthew Currie
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 768
Location: Vermont

1/28/18 11:59 AM

I'm sure many people vote "against" rather than "for" in their own minds, but I just think they're mistaken and that their mistakes have a terrible consequence. I know a lot of people voted for Nader when faced with the choice between Gore and Bush, claiming that the two mainstream choices were interchangeable, but even if one found more similarities than was comfortable, and even if the were right in thinking Gore was not good enough, I think they were woefully wrong, and so, to an even greater degree are those who voted for Trump as a protest against anything else. It is a pain and a drag to be faced with a choice between the lesser of two evils, but voting for the greater of the two is a dangerous gesture.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16790
Location: Portland, OR

1/28/18 12:08 PM

I think, or at least observe, the inadequate candidate syndrome voting [or skipping as a result of the perception] is more prevalent with older voters. And more friends and US as we get older. Years or so called participation in the process educates one.

How we voted is moot 2016, OR was going to go Blue period.

Does Bernie have a better chance 2020 is a question, I think he will be 79 going in...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

1/28/18 1:38 PM

Matthew...

...first off you have no right to tell anyone how to vote, period. I'm an adult, I knew what I was doing and I made my decision. Defensive voting is absolutely legitimate and I really don't care if that suits you or not. I was also not going to hand the election to Clinton by not voting. I find it very interesting that you espouse that strategy considering that lack of voter turnout is precisely why Clinton lost.

I voted against Clinton because I wasn't willing to surrender the Supreme Court to liberals. The court has far more long-term impact than anything that Trump - or whoever replaces him when he's removed from office - could do, so I went for long-term benefit at the cost of short-term pain. It's a horrible predicament, but that's the situation we were in. You may not agree with my belief that a conservative, "originalist" court is best for the country and that's fine. We don't need to agree, but we can be civil in our disagreement. However, I absolutely reject your assertion that it was a mistake; I knew exactly what I was doing and I would do it again if I was ever faced with a similar situation. Hopefully the parties have learned from this election cycle and they will never foist two such pathetic candidates on the American electorate again.

I also happen to be a believer in the importance of the Second Amendment, which was one more reason to vote against Clinton.

If it makes you feel any better, I am extremely pissed at the Republican Party for screwing up so badly during the run-up to the primaries that Trump managed to get the nomination. I'm also pissed at how spineless Congressional Republicans when it comes to standing up to him and calling him out for his atrocious behavior and constant flip-flopping.

I hope Mueller nails his ass to the wall and we're rid of him for good!

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3223
Location: Springfield

1/28/18 2:50 PM

Congress could really assert their co-equal power right now and let the executive branch know "there's a new sheriff in town."

But there's no new sheriff in town.

Instead it's like there's a one-upsmanship game between the republicans and democrats of: "we can be a little more corrupt than you and still get away with it."

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16790
Location: Portland, OR

1/28/18 2:52 PM

"I can't see a reasonable way to separate voting for a person and supporting him"

I totally can. You examine what boxes are getting checked with things one or the other will do you find positive. You don't have to support that candidate across the board.

Especially in this cycle, when the probable expectation of DT actually finishing the term at all, or without becoming a lame duck seemed a reasonable expectation early on. Dare I say post primary/prior to the actual election. Or at least not an impossible or even improbable one perhaps.

It seems unfortunate for this country a lot of voters felt the same way towards Hilly and I do for DT in the sense/feeling of just 'now way' every time a mouth of either spews rhetoric. She seems a lot less harmful, albeit perhaps less predictable than DT.

I still maintain the person who is winging it with little understanding of processes of governing is a bad choice fundamentally. So Pence over DT as a lesser is better with this logic.

My biggest issues are the stalls and especially the stall to not appoint a justice during a previous administration for example. Which smells terribly like fascism and totalitarian, not what I thought democracy is/was. The continued same behavior in the house and senate have the same smell.

If this IS becomes the WAS I will retire out of country. And it sells like it to me.

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Matthew Currie
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 768
Location: Vermont

1/28/18 10:19 PM

I am not telling anyone how to vote. I'm voicing my opinion that the vote was a mistake. That's an opinion to which I'm entitled no matter how it makes anyone feel. We obviously differ on many issues, and I'm sure the decision was difficult to swallow. I just think it's dangerous to vote for someone you don't want to win, and given the chain of unlikelihoods leading to Trump's candidacy, dangerous to predict good coming of it. I disagree with Sparky. If you vote in good faith for someone, you are supporting him. That's not the same as liking him, and I didn't say "across the board." But if you think your vote has meaning, then it's a vote to have that person elected, and that's support.

But enough. We have what we have. Good luck with it.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3223
Location: Springfield

1/29/18 6:51 PM

This article is getting some air time. It's a solid hour to read, hour-and-a-half, but each of the segments is enlightening so scanning it works too.

Early on it describes Stone, Manafort and Atwater's entry on the scene and the ascendancy of lobbyists in the Reagan era. Lots of familiar names we haven't heard from in a few years or decades and how they tie into the election of 2016.

The style begins by jumping back and forth between decades, and then the last third is pretty much a 21st century chronological narrative.

Paul Manafort, American Hustler - The Atlantic

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/paul-manafort-american-hustler/550925/

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16790
Location: Portland, OR

1/29/18 7:24 PM

Matt, to be clear. I said I totally understand it, not that I do or don't personally for that reason or any reason. Seems like you are going out of your way to categorize perhaps.

So if you are disagreeing with my observation and understanding that folks do in fact 'check boxes' and not support, it is unclear as to why to me.

If I was unclear in how I stated that, pardon me. And if I an not correct on saying it seems/categorizing et al, pardon me as well for that.


Last edited by Sparky on 1/29/18 8:44 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Matthew Currie
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 768
Location: Vermont

1/29/18 8:37 PM

I understand the observation. My divergence is on whether it's reasonable, though on reflection I suppose it depends on your own estimate of cost and benefit; and perhaps on the semantic issue of how one can say voting for a candidate is not support.

Obviously different people have different tolerance for the price we'll pay for what we want.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

1/30/18 6:45 AM

In this case...

...perhaps the best way to look at it is that people voted for their key issues and the candidate is merely a messenger. Granted, Trump sucks as a messenger.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3223
Location: Springfield

1/30/18 10:06 AM

In that case we need better civics education.

Since Presidential polls began to include Trump he only won one. All the other ones were for support. He won the one for power.

When the polls went to the people he lost.

When the people went to the polls he won.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

1/30/18 2:06 PM

on the eve of 45*'s first "State of the Uniom" [sic] address...keep this in mind

<img src=https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/27066871_2006762129563177_3397883587869367209_n.jpg?oh=44fc6ff8aec3d86e2248dd4e3dca22ee&oe=5B18B599>

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8310
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

1/30/18 7:33 PM

Well, best of two bad choices

I voted against Clinton.

Thus far, Trump has not done much except, cause my 401 and TSP to go boom in a good way, stemmed the tide of illegal immigration, and is bringing manufacturing back to the USA with just the threat of changes. (Apple is a good example)

He is crass, a total knot head with regards to science, and does not come across as a "nice" person. He needs to put down his phone and quit with twitter while angry.

He is also rebuilding the military which has fallen apart in so many ways over the years of constant war without investment in replacement hardware or recruiting of quality people.

So, I would give him a C, maybe a low B. His predecessor got a F IMO.

He has not "drained the swamp" as he said. Nor has a border wall been started. I support both of those ideals.

I am for immigration, we are a nation of immigrants (for the most part) and we should never forget that but our grandparents were vetted for everything to include health and that worked, so bring it back.

The swamp will n very be drained.

Yes, I am still alive, a year later but I have not ridden much, life and work get in the way it seems.

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Tom Price
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 429
Location: Rochester, NY

1/30/18 9:42 PM

Erik,

Welcome back!

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3223
Location: Springfield

1/31/18 5:00 AM

Another provocative Russian military incident occurred. This time within 48 hours of the State of the Union address.
Over international waters an Su-27 fighter buzzed within 5' of a U.S. propeller driven submarine hunter. I don't recall any mention of it in the President's address.
Fox
CBS
NBC
BBC
The Sun
Let me guess, "this happens all the time."
It's difficult to have a strong military with a compromised commander in chief.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6045
Location: Maine

1/31/18 6:51 AM

Good to hear from you Erik

I haven't been riding much either, but it's medical problems getting in my way. But I'm looking forward to a decent season.

My retirement accounts are also doing well, which I certainly appreciate, but I think it's fair to point out that they have been doing well since the current bull market started in March, 2009, that the S&P went up more in Obama's first year than in Trump's, and that it went up 32% in 2013 compared to 22% last year. So Trump is not some magic savior of the economy. And he seems determined to attack Amazon, which I find bizarre.

How do you feel about Trump's refusal to consider Putin an adversary?

How are you and your daughter doing?

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4363
Location: metro-motown-area

1/31/18 8:54 AM

"our grandparents were vetted for everything"

as an immigrant and naturalized US citizen, it is alarming that anyone believes fox-and-friends claims that our immigration process is somehow open and allows unfettered access for people to enter the US.

it is not. every single immigrant seeking to enter the US legally faces extreme vetting today and has for many, many years.

do not conflate immigration with border security.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6045
Location: Maine

1/31/18 9:25 AM

Not to worry, we're in good hands

This takes the cake:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/31/health/cdc-director-fitzgerald-resigns-bn/index.html

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4177
Location: Nashua, NH

1/31/18 1:01 PM

This would be a grand farce...

...if it wasn't so dangerous.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6442
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/31/18 3:39 PM

"fake danger"

Whatever the danger, it's short term.

As long as the conservative judges are in the Supreme court, all will be well in the long run.

;-)

More seriously, I just don't share the "enthusiasm" on Trump bashing. Many who voted for him was counting on the Senate and the House to keep him in check. Our constitution was setup to do exactly that.

The fact that those two didn't do they job, it's a much more serious problem than Trump being the president. It means our democratic system itself is broken. It will only be a matter of time an even more terrible dictator would come along and take the country to the truly dangerous destination.

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