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Limited processing power
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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/9/17 4:30 PM

Limited processing power

Another hazard for the aging cyclist - this one mental, not physical.

As I've posted I'm riding eTap on my new road bike. However I've been commuting recently on my cross bike, which has Ergo. The right lever action is opposite in the 2 systems - a tap on the lever is an upshift in eTap and downshift in Ergo. So I ride one system all week and the other on the weekend. I tend to do things on autopilot, and from time to time ago for a downshift on eTap and get an upshift. Not usually a problem, just compensate with 2 downshifts.

Today was funny though. My loop has a short wall with a downhill lead in, so I need to go from a high gear right to my lowest gear and grunt. Today I do the eTap front shift and then my brain goes into ergo-mode and I bang off a bunch of "downshifts" which are actually upshifts, and I end up on the small cog. Unlike Uran I cannot do this hill in a 34/11, so after a "WTF?" or 2 I roll back down the hill and do it correctly.

It's funny unless I do it in a group, and I don't do group rides anymore but I do some events so I have to try to keep my brain turned on. And I love the cross bike and use it quite a bit. I guess I could get eTap for the cross bike, but that would be extreme even for me.

Approaching 67, I don't know whether I'll be able to sort this out or not...:)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/9/17 4:44 PM

I hear you. Since the Di2 I have real trouble with every Shimano STI. Not even sure I want to swing levers at all anymore. Bu more brain farts, I am a few years behind you. [6-7]

I also have Nashbar/Microshift 10s on the Madone. Got them when I had a tendonitis right elbow thing hanging on for 6 months. Plan was [hoping] not swinging/twisting the whole arm/lever would help, it did and fast.

The Microshift buttons are in the same place as the Di2 and do the same thing after I reversed the Di2 right shifters from orig.

I just ordered another set of the MicroShifts on sale for 70 space bucks. So 11s for the Di2 and 10s for the Microshifts.

I took the copper bike with the 7800 STIs on it the other day and was mis shifting a lot. I may have acclimated on a longer ride. [before a tired state reversion probably]


I may be selling off all my Shimano 10s STIs, 4-5 pairs.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

7/9/17 11:35 PM

The three issues I had with Shimano 10s road shifting were sensitivity to cable friction, little tolerance for non-Shimano chain, and marginal or less-than-positive shifting when using the 11-28t cassette with it's heavily-concave profile.
Other than that, I love 10s with Shimano chain and a 12-27t cassette.
11s works no better on average, even with the rear derailer's revised actuation ratio and zero-float top pulley. My hilly test-ride this evening on a 2016 Colnago CX-0 with 6800 gear showed me that some bikes achieve better results with 11s than others because of superior cable routing. This bike has 1550 miles on it's original, year-old cabling, and still shifted with authority in both directions, though was sensitive to even the slightest heavy-handedness when selecting a next-larger cog. I'll back off a little on the cable tension and have another go, but first will have to fix the derailer's broken adjuster barrel or maybe swap in my spare 6800 short-cage and 11-25t cassette.

For this evening's casual ride down into the American River Canyon, I was loving the widely-spaced 11-32t cassette, though for paceline work it will surely leave me wanting.
I can change to a 11-25t cassette and still achieve quite-low gearing using the bike's original compact chainrings.
I'm disappointed that a $3500 bike is coming in at 18 pounds, even with a 1900g wheelset as a partial excuse. I found the chassis' steering exceptional, though with virtually no bump compliance evident in the chassis as a whole, even with it's high-end 23mm Vittorias inflated to 90psi for my 140lbs. I worked the front brake hard on one long, steep downhill, and noted only the slightest bit of visible fork flex in response to braking down the traffic-free (technically off-road, though paved) descent.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/10/17 5:18 AM

I haven't had too many issues...

...switching between Ergo and the customized DI2 on the Niner. The shape of the levers is so different, that I'm rapidly getting to the point where I make the distinction automatically by feel and shift according. The fact that the left=downshift/right=upshift configuration I'm using is so simple and so distinct from Ergo probably helps my aging brain make the transition.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/10/17 6:20 AM

It's all the same...

The eTap and ergo hoods feel the same to me, and the lever motion is the same except you push the ergo lever farther. Plus I've been riding ergo forever. Old habits die hard....

Of course I have Rphloff shifting and barend rear/lever front on other bikes, but those are easier to keep separate (though I have reached for a barend when none is there....)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/10/17 6:26 AM

It's too bad...

...that SRAM doesn't make an eTAP twist shifter (yet). That oughta' solve the problem! ;-)

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/10/17 8:00 AM

Isn't Di2 electronic? Can it be reprogrammed to reverse the up/downshift? Customization?

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

7/10/17 8:25 AM

Switching between downtube shifters and STI makes for a few amusing swings of the arm reaching for a nonexistent lever, actually unlike riding a motorcycle where I've never confused the front or rear brake lever for anything else (but which would be a more-serious matter if I did).

I figure that switching between different lever layouts is one of those things that might help prevent neurological decline, especially having to exercise well-timed, quick in/out of the saddle acrobatics required as one selects from typically more widely-spaced ratios while climbing on an older bike with downtube shifters (and surely with additional benefit from use of non-indexed shifters).
For the same reason, I choose to find amusement in the mental effort of strategically manipulating a front triple shifter on an mtb, rather than adopt a newer-but-dumbed-down 1x system.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/10/17 9:49 AM

reprogramming

I haven't looked into it but perhaps the eTap shifting could be reprogrammed. But for the time being I'm taking dddd's approach and looking at it as a mental exercise.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/10/17 11:15 AM

Yes Di2 is highly programmable

As I mentioned previously, I reprogrammed mine to use Synchro-shift, which automatically shifts the front derailleur at an appropriate point as you go up or down the cassette. I reprogrammed the left buttons to both downshift (lower gear) and the right buttons to both upshift (higher gear).

Why, you ask?

The bike is question is my 'cross/gravel rig. The two buttons on each Di2 lever are very close together and it's really easy to hit the wrong one when you're getting rattled around on a rough road or trail. The setup described above means that all I have to do is find either button on the appropriate side and I'll get the desired shift; no real dexterity is required. This will also be beneficial in cold weather, as it will work with heavy gloves or even with mittens. It's about as simple as shifting can get, from a human interface perspective.

Dan,
I did a quick search and apparently eTAP is not user-programmable, which is a shame. I do have a question about it; when you get the the lowest gear on the cassette and try to downshift farther, what happens?

On the SRAM Double-Tap systems, doing that results in an upshift, which is the worst thing in that situation. I heard a rumor that they've added a "ghost" position now to prevent that now (way overdue, it should have been part of the original design). I would expect that eTAP is smart enough to know not to upshift when the rider is asking for a downshift, but I wanted to confirm that.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/10/17 11:45 AM

Shifting beyond the limit

Brian,

If you try to shift beyond the low limit, nothing happens. The derailleur doesn't move, so it's not a problem and you know where you are.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/10/17 11:57 AM

Cool, that's what I figured

I didn't think they'd make the same mistake that they did with the mechanical groups.

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sanrensho
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 835
Location: North Vancouver

7/10/17 3:23 PM

Literally the worst shifting feature ever.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/10/17 3:41 PM

Are you a software engineer?

They're the only people who would look at an obvious bug/design defect and say "just document it and call it a feature". ;-)

I agree with you wholeheartedly that it was a major screwup on SRAM's part. Unfortunately, it appears that they got away with it, as it doesn't seem to have hampered their sales. I also don't recall seeing it mentioned in a single review when it first came out.

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

7/10/17 4:55 PM

The problem is too many bikes.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/10/17 6:13 PM

"The problem is too many bikes."


So if all the 'too many bikes" all have the same shifters, this doe not negate it being too many bikes, is that right?? ;)

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sanrensho
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 835
Location: North Vancouver

7/10/17 8:03 PM

SRAM Feature

Maybe not mentioned in product reviews (all expenses paid for by SRAM), but I've seen online complaints from users.

Perhaps SRAM could market it as the Uran feature or HTFU. I don't even know if the latest SRAM groups do this.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/11/17 5:01 AM

One problem...

...Uran's Cannondale team is using Shimano. However, Di2-HTFU has a nice ring to it!

I was riding with someone on Sunday that mentioned that some rider(s) had come up with a hack to fix it and that SRAM has finally fixed it in some groups, but I can't vouch for either of those assertions.

I doubt that SRAM would come with a statement to the effect of "You know that really annoying f**kup we made in the original DoubleTap design? We fixed it!" Rather, I imagine it will be an inline change that will get little or no mention, though perhaps some reviewers may pick up on it.


Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 7/11/17 5:02 AM; edited 1 time in total

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/11/17 6:39 AM

Steve B

You must have been having a bad day, I'll forget you said that...

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/11/17 10:12 AM

LOL

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

7/11/17 11:47 AM

Yuk, Yuk.

I do say that I am impressed but also amused by all the bikes some of you guys own. I have a Carbon Road, Steel Road with a triple, Steel Tourer as well as 2 mt. bikes. Oh and a defunct recumbent. Don't see the need for more, as 3 of these road bikes will do about all I need, with an occasional wheel and tire swap.

I did pull a funny one on my wife, who somewhat keeps track, when I told her I store the bikes of a buddy who lives in Utah and visits often, thus he has bikes to ride (a road and a mt.). She's now confused and if I should sneak another into the basement she might not think it's actually mine.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/11/17 12:09 PM

I have 1 fewer than you, and I have trouble finding enough time to ride them all.

Granted, I have non-cycling hobbies competing for time

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/11/17 12:59 PM

My biggest issues are...

A) I hang onto bikes that I rarely - if ever - ride "just in case". I traded one bike to a collector and I've regretted it for years. Some of them aren't worth enough to make it worth the effort to sell them.

B) I need bikes in the two locations where I split my time. I can carry a couple of bikes back and forth if necessary, but it's not always convenient. I've been keeping a road bike in each location, which helps a lot, since that's what I ride the most. I end up shuttling off-road bikes around frequently.

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

7/11/17 12:59 PM

I'm happy to say my Soma Smoothie and my Miyata tourer get used for commuting, so all my road bikes are seeing regular use. Bike commuting keeps me sane.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

7/11/17 3:26 PM

I have bikes still running downtube shifters, bikes with barend shifters, bikes with SRAM doubletap shifters, one with Campagnolo Ergo, and one with a Rohloff twist shifter mounted in the end of the handlebars. When I switch bikes I frequently find myself, for the first hour or two, fishing for a shift lever that isn't there:-)


quote:
I need bikes in the two locations where I split my time. I can carry a couple of bikes back and forth if necessary, but it's not always convenient. I've been keeping a road bike in each location, which helps a lot, since that's what I ride the most.

My wife and I have been doing that for quite a while. Most of my family lives in Perth, so we both keep a bike in my sister's attic over there for use when we visit, and one of my brothers lives in Switzerland, and we both keep a touring bike in his attic so that we don't have to bother with carting bikes back and forth on planes for cycling holidays over there.

When I was travelling a lot for work, I owned a Bike Friday, and it usually accompanied me. As each trip was a week or slightly longer, I nearly always had the opportunity to go for a couple of rides. It did depend on the destination, though - I didn't take it to Beirut or Bogota or Port Moresby, as I thought they were rather chancy places to go cycling.

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