7/20/15 12:04 PM

how do you do it? as i understand it, generally you want to be as forward as possible so you can get low/flat while maintaining a familiar hip angle and leg-extension.

UCI regs stipulate >= 5cm saddle setback. my road position setback is 9cm.

so i'm guessing, off the top of my head, that i would slide my saddle 4cm forward, adjust saddle height as needed to maintain consistent saddle height and leg extension, and then position the bars/arm-rests to maintain my "aero / riding in the drops position" hip angle.

anything else to it?

7/20/15 1:00 PM

Don't worry about UCI rules yet. Find a position that works, then cut the nose off the saddle. That is what some pros do.

ITT is much safer than your past racing endeavors.

7/20/15 1:35 PM

Forget this aero crap, the real hardmen just get on their road bikes and ride it old skool. Around here most tts have a Merckx Division.

7/20/15 1:44 PM

I have a friend I race against often in masters he has beaten me with a regular road bike in a TT, if you are good you are good ;)

7/20/15 3:01 PM

Walter, do you ever ride with your forearms on the tops, 90^ approx forearm to upper arm with your hands limp and dangling out front? My other questions, what is your saddle to bar drop height for road riding, and the center of your bar/stem from the front axle?

7/20/15 3:35 PM

I put a woman's saddle (as it has a shorter nose) on my TT bike. But I needn't have bothered, as even at national masters level, I've never had anyone check the saddle position relative to the BB. My Cervelo P3 also has a really steep seat angle, as you can see in this photo my wife took of me TTing. The seatpost clamp can be set either backwards or forwards, giving (according to Cervelo) an effective seat angle of either 75 or 78 degrees. I think only triathletes would be using the latter.

7/20/15 6:26 PM

Yep comfortabe enough on road bike to ride tempo in a spinacci-esque position.

Saddle to bar drop is 11cm (to upper surface of bar, so ~12.5cm to center).

No idea about that last spec, why would the bar to hub center matter? That number is affected by bb height, yes?

7/20/15 6:51 PM

I was curious how low you still had to go. My take if not doing a slammed position. If the spinachi position works and is comfortable. Just have any arm rest tops at that height or lower, and then lower it more = to how much setback you are giving up as you rotate yourself into a more forward position on the bike to be more aero.

Picking your machine with the longest front center will likely net the most stability with more weight forward. More air in the front tire if you usually run lower front with all the setback IMO. AND/Or maybe even a bigger front tire if the WB is shortish maybe could return a little more stability for a geom that is not the most stable with more weight forward.

And a bigger bike rather than a smaller bike as long as it does not keep you from getting the front low enough. [Look at pic of my old Nago road with TT bars] See the stem I had to use to get the bars close to low enough, and I still had a setback seatpost on it. Good example perhaps for your bikes and what you want to do.

But me, I get pretty long when I am in that position, but I already like long stems as do you IIRC. I hate the idea of a hard stop in that position, endos are us.




Pic may take a few minutes to show up..

Last edited by Sparky on 7/20/15 10:15 PM; edited 1 time in total

7/20/15 7:52 PM

Can you make good power if you move your saddle forward that much and change things around that much?

I assume you would have to spend lots of hours riding that position to get your power readings up to your regular road position.

I like the idea of the merckx style road position.

7/20/15 8:38 PM

You're not just doing a "forward slam", but rotating the entire position forward. Keeping cranks/saddle/hands geometry consistent. Saddle goes fwd and up a little. Bars go fwd and down a little. Hip angle and leg extension stay constant.

So in *theory* the change to muscle recruitment should be minimized. In theory.

7/20/15 10:09 PM

BTW, the front center on my Blade is 2" bigger than the Scott Addict, both 61CM frames. Making the point I mentioned about stability when you get your upper body low and longer and weight farther forward et al.


"So in *theory* the change to muscle recruitment should be minimized"

I can tell you that it does not feel even a little close to the same.


I am thinking maybe you have started to feel the way I always have regarding TT VS mass start and crit pile ups while your bones have been mending. ;O

7/21/15 6:13 AM

Where is the 2" measured from? In other words, is the diff between the blade and the scott in the head angle? rake? stem length? It would seem frame wise to compare the distance between steerer center line and bottom race or crown bottom on the two frames.

The idea of a whole body rotation around the center of gravity is interesting. I think that's Walter's perception.

7/21/15 6:44 AM

Sparky, Loved the look of the Mavic Cosmics. I had a pair of the 2G production, after they fixed the issue with the end caps on the hubs.

They were my first aero wheels and I used them to race duathlon for a number of years. I recall the ride on those was exceptionally harsh, but for that time, they looked cool.

Lee

7/21/15 8:59 AM

Yea, they were actually Aero for early Aero wheels. The rear 16 spokes always made me nervous at my girth if I got out of the saddle. I had them until they got sold with the Colnago early this year. Hated to see the Nago go, since it had been around since 93-4.


2" more FRONT CENTER meaning BB to front axle. Guess which one totally stable when you are riding seeing the front axle way ahead of the bars when down low out or the air.

7/21/15 11:20 AM

I thought the reason triathletes moved so far forward was because it made the transition from bike to run easier as it recruits more closely the same muscles..??

I can't imagine that the position is in any way similar....

7/21/15 3:33 PM

That's how I first got a good feeling on a bike that, by mere chance, left me "rotated forward".

So with these forward positionings, the position is sustainable depending on the torque output that one can maintain over the duration of the ride/event.
More pedaling torque takes the weight off of the arms.

Note that the saddle also needs tilting downward, matching the body's forward rotation.
Also, that one's arm muscles develop quickly in response to riding more forward, allowing some gradual increase in the riding duration even as one's fitness level remains about the same.
I try to keep the saddle-to-bars distance about the same, for good comfort.

I can kick out three hours on this bike, just.
The safety levers are actually a big part of improving that duration, as they allow a "rest" position that can be maintained even when braking is needed, as when descending!

The bars here (top photo) aren't very low at all, but with the forearms horizontal in the drops it feels just about right.
And the Serfas TEGU saddle has a broad, soft nose (it's technically an MTB saddle).

Yet one more advantage of forward positioning is the immediacy and effortlessness of transitioning to a standing "attack" position, with no lost pedal stroke due to having to support weight momentarily with both legs. That's wasted leg effort when riding a bike set up more normally (i.e. set up as might be needed to finish a century or long RR).

7/21/15 3:58 PM

Damn if you don't have some of the coolest bikes...

7/22/15 6:55 PM

Thanks!

I've taken a liking to old-school tt bikes with standard road bars, the so-called "Merckx division" type of bikes that Dan mentioned.

But you can go the opposite route, with clip-on bars on a road bike, as long as the frame size and stem length still play nice with the reconfiguration.

The ovaloid chainrings on that French Polchlopek look about opposite in function as BioPace, the rider's knees be damned. They are supposedly modified round rings! It's incredibly modern for a 1981 bike, actually seems to pull more effort from your legs than intended.