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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19083
Location: PDX5/25/15 10:08 AM |
" Post clinic, I now ski much faster than before. So while I crash less often, each crash hurts more."
I have said something very similar regarding my Moto-CX life.
I used to fall a lot early on. By 5-6 years in I almost never came off the bike, but when I did I sure made it count. Falling 'more' in my case had less broken bones and ligament injuries early on I can tell you.
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/25/15 10:49 AM |
muddling the water
quote:
Falling 'more' in my case had less broken bones and ligament injuries early on I can tell you.
No, you can't tell me that. Your statement makes absolutely no sense.
What's the connection of you falling more "early on" has anything to do with "less broken bones"???
In my case with regard to skiing, it's directly related to speed. Pre-clinic, I had the correct sense that I didn't have enough skill and control to go fast. The many frequent crashes proved that. So I didn't. That's how I survived without much injury even while skiing poorly.
The decrease in crash frequency post-clinic is a direct result of improved skill. Had I left it at that, I would be a much safer skier, albeit not a speedy one. Unfortunately, I also made the fateful decision to increase my speed. 2 broken ribs were the result.
I had already dial back my bike descend speed following my D2R2 crash. Perfectly acceptable even if not quite as enjoyable rewards following long climbs. But there's no counter measure to small potholes. I can't go any slower than what I was doing (probably ~10mph).
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/25/15 12:04 PM |
quote:
Have you revisited that pothole and ridden through it multiple times slowly?
...
For confidence and peace of mind, I'd drive out there and revisit the pothole if it still exists. I prefer not to worry. But that's just me...
I went back to that stretch of road again. I can't even identify the exact pot hole that tipped my bike and tossed me on the ground!
There were a few minor ones here and there. None of them look like the one I remembered. Regardless, one of them had to be the culprit.
So instead of peace of mind, it points to the opposite. The pot holes look even less significant than I remembered. If I have to avoid all pot hole of that size, I might as well just stay home and ride a roller in the garage.
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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson5/25/15 12:46 PM |
quote:
So instead of peace of mind, it points to the opposite. The pot holes look even less significant than I remembered. If I have to avoid all pot hole of that size, I might as well just stay home and ride a roller in the garage.
You could hurt yourself falling off a roller, just saying...
Then the evidence points to YOU. You screwed up. The steering got bumped. And you either didn't correct it in time (slow learned reflexes) or you way overcorrected or your reflexes made you do something weird.
If you really wish to pursue it: is there testing for reflexes to reveal any neurological problems?
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/25/15 1:33 PM |
quote:
Then the evidence points to YOU. You screwed up.
I knew even without going back there, the pot hole were small. Re-visit confirmed it.
I knew my reaction BEFORE I hit it was that of NO alarm! It was only after the bar got jerk violently to one side that I realized I was in much bigger trouble than I anticipated. The re-visit only explained why I didn't take it seriously. I've gone over this size holes million times.
For some reason, I had a lot of weight on the bar. So when the bar got jerk to one side, with a simultaneous sudden slowdown of the bike, I got pitched forward and at an angle... In an instance, I found my shoulder way ahead of the bar, way off to one side! Not sure what I could have done by then. I felt it would have to be done a whole lot sooner than that point. In other words, subconsciously and automatically.
quote:
The steering got bumped. And you either didn't correct it in time (slow learned reflexes) ...
I did not correct it in time is the correct answer. Why was not entirely clear. Should have been an automated response. I've ridden over pot holes million times.
I can see clearly at least TWO mistakes I made:
1) Not seeing the pot hole early and avoid it.
2) Misjudged the size and danger of the hole (and immediately get into a "combat" position: butt off the saddle and to the rear, to get my weight off the bar, allowing the bike to "float" better when it hit the hole).
Both mistake happened BEFORE I actually hit the pot hole. After the hit? I don't know... What else?
Last edited by April on 5/25/15 1:43 PM; edited 1 time in total
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/25/15 1:39 PM |
quote:
If you really wish to pursue it: is there testing for reflexes to reveal any neurological problems?
That would be something useful if such test exist. (potential neurological problem, not comparing with pro's with lightening fast reflex)
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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5101
Location: Nashua, NH5/26/15 5:34 AM |
It seems to me that you're way over-thinking this
It actually seems pretty simple. More than likely, what you hit was a crack in the road that was angled relative to your direction of travel. It grabbed the tire, turned it and you went over the bar in the opposite direction of the turn.
Pavement cracks that are wide enough to grab a tire are more of a danger than a typical round pothole. Generally with common rounded potholes - unless they're really large - the worst case scenario is a dented rim (or two), a long walk home or wait for a ride, and an expensive repair. Conversely, cracks will stop or twist the front wheel and are a guaranteed trip over the handlebars.
The solution is equally simple; pay more attention to the road surface, especially in the spring "pothole season". It may take some effort initially, but it will be come second nature. Frankly, spending more time riding and less time fretting over your crashes would be the best thing to do. As the saying goes, "$hit happens" and you can't prevent it. You had a run of bad luck; it happens. If you gave up every activity that resulted in an injury, where would you be?
As for mountain biking, every time I hear someone say that they ride mountain bikes because they're scared of riding on the roads, I'm dumbstruck. Unless one's definition of "mountain biking" is riding a mountain bike on rail trails and groomed dirt roads, there is no way it's safer. In addition to the huge number of uncontrollable variables in the terrain and surface which can lead to crashes (off road riding is essentially like riding nearly continuous potholes), you're out in the woods where it could be difficult for you to summon help and for help to reach you once you did. While I enjoy both, I'm under no illusion that being off-road is safer.
Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 5/27/15 5:34 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven5/26/15 7:48 AM |
That's really good advice, and particularly so for Westchester locale which does have a pothole season.
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Anthony Smith
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 848
Location: Ohio5/26/15 8:22 AM |
when its time
I am also getting to that age, and there are a couple rules to remember.
1) I can expect to crash about once a season, 2) the time to stop is when I get scared or if it isn't fun anymore.
That being said. I continue to race crits, road stuff, Track races, the occassional cross race, and mtb xc.
I general I find my body acts 20-25 years younger than the general population, probably because I continue to push it
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/26/15 2:02 PM |
It's not a crack.it's pothole for sure. It's possible that I hit the edge of the hole which defects the front wheel sideways.
While the roads do get repaired eventually, their # decreas gradually, pot holes persist through out the summer.
Yes, I know I am.overthinking my most recent crash.
A run of bad luck it sure was. How much more to come? I'm just sick and tire of being in pain which doesn't seem to end, one bout after another. The "pain" of the quad in a long climb is nowhere comparable! Moreover, while the pain from hard workout resulted in long term improvemenint, the pain of injury leaves permanent scar tissue instead.
quote:
the time to stop is when I get scared or if it isn't fun anymore.
I'm feeling both right now. The latter largely because the former. Basically, I can't enjoy riding when I'm scared the whole time.
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/26/15 4:10 PM |
quote:
off road riding is essentially like riding nearly continuous potholes
Pretty close analogy.
The worst pot hole induced crashes typically happen in the transition from smooth to pot holed stretches, or isolated pot hole on smooth roads (which was so in my last crash). Once in the middle of a heavily pot holed road, speed eventually drops. While the potential for fall remain relatively high, the reduced speed reduces the severity of the impact. Also, the heightened alertness helps to keep one stay upright better. (which is pretty much all the time when riding off-road, hence a completely different experience than road riding)
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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6890
Location: Maine5/26/15 4:35 PM |
Potholes
I really don't think road potholes are a big deal if you keep your eyes open. I ride potholed roads all the time, pavement and dirt, and have never fallen because of a pothole. I have gotten a flat and bent a wheel by hitting potholes I did not see, but not fallen.
April, as others have said I think you just somehow caught an edge that twisted your bars and put you off balance so you did not have leverage to correct. That could happen to anyone, including me, and cause a fall. But the probabilities are not high. 30 years ago I got my front wheel (tubie!) into a crack like Brian mentions and went down hard, breaking nothing but losing a good bit of skin. I think that's analogous to what happened to you. It hasn't happened since, and I pay more attention to cracks as a result. It could happen again, but the chances are against it.
From what you've said, you know how to ride potholed areas - relaxed, weight back, elbows bent, unweight, keep a firm grip on the bars and I want to be on the hoods or drops for steering leverage and balance. I don't want to hit something with my hands on the tops, or with a loose grip. You don't need to be a great bike handler, because I am not.
So it's your call and you have to do what you're comfortable with, but I am also in the "you're overthinking" camp.
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/26/15 5:26 PM |
quote:
I don't want to hit something with my hands on the tops, or with a loose grip.
I don't ride on the top any more. But that's part and parcel to my riding more intensely than I've been in the past.
That said, I don't always keep a solid grip on the bar, not when I thought the road is in good condition. Indeed I've gotten my hands knocked off the bar before, though fortunately didn't go down (because the bike kept on going straight). Part of it has to do with my having small hand, so it's a "stretch" to loop around the briffer lever. So unfortunately, gripping solidly for long period lead to hand fatigue.
The scenes of horrendous crashes of my riding friends had always been in the recess of my mind all these years. I was able to suppress them in the past, by rationalizing all of my crashes, which came extremely rarely.
The last 2, less than 10 rides apart, were difficult to rationalize away.
Even though the logical side of my brain can be persuaded to accept the small risk of potential crash due to pot holes, the subconscious mind is much harder to be tricked into ignoring the scary & painful memory. That translate to not being able to relax and enjoy the ride itself.
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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5101
Location: Nashua, NH5/28/15 5:31 AM |
I think it comes down to this
Either quit worrying and get on your bike, or just quit riding. All this discussion is getting you nowhere, as you're in the exact same mindset as when you started this thread. Make a decision and live with it.
Call it "tough love" or whatever, but that's the bottom line. We can't make the decision for you.
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/28/15 9:00 AM |
Basically, I can't simply "quit worrying" just like that. So...the conclusion would need to be quit riding, unfortunately.
The "over-thinking" was largely my attemtp to find enough justification to continue riding. But sadly, it's still "getting me nowhere" as you put it so clearly.
Looking back the last 5 years, the extensive down time caused by the multiple injuries pretty much wiped away whatever fitness benefit I derived from 'sport riding'! Moreover, all the juries are to the upper body which cycling doesn't help re-building. I really need the time off bike to focus on.
Last edited by April on 5/28/15 12:01 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Anthony Smith
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 848
Location: Ohio5/28/15 9:53 AM |
PS
My team mate Carl Grove is 87 and still racing and goes well north of 30mph
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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson5/28/15 2:50 PM |
Another thought. Get a friend whom you can follow the wheels of for the next few rides. Then you can let the friend call the potholes. And you can concentrate on relaxing. Until you get your mojo back...
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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson5/28/15 2:53 PM |
quote:
My team mate Carl Grove is 87 and still racing and goes well north of 30mph
A total freak of nature. The tail end of the Bell curve. His situation couldn't possibly be relevant to anyone here...
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/28/15 7:44 PM |
It's more than just mojo...
I do feel pretty strongly the down time from my last crash really tip me towards the 'net lose' territory in terms of fitness, health & overall quality of life.
My first 3 crashes all happened late season. That, plus the elective surgery (to remove the plates and screws from my collarbone), negatively impacted 4 of my last 5 winter of skiing. My kayaking, which typically happens in spring and fall, had no chance because I was recovering from one injury after another.
It may indeed be just a run of bad luck. But the cost (in time) is just so high I don't feel like playing the luck game any more. Cycling maybe enjoyable. It's not the only such activity. I don't want to give up everything else just to keep riding.
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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson5/28/15 9:43 PM |
Quit cycling then.
See if you feel the urge or call of the open road.
See if you drive past some place, see some cyclists and say:
"damn, I wish I was riding with them!"
See if you feel any difference in fitness or well-being.
See if you feel the urge to get back in shape. You could take up running like I did...
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/29/15 5:12 AM |
quote:
See if you feel the urge to get back in shape.
I feel the urge to stay in shape RIGHT NOW! But instead of a few laps in the pool, I'm going to physical therapist who're trying to help me get back to what I could do 2 years ago...
I will never let myself get out of shape if I can help, precisely so that I don't don't have to struggle to "get back in shape"! Injury set me back more than anything else. First, it forces me to be inactive, losing fitness. Then it takes time to climb back out of that fitness deficit. As one gets older, the recovery time gets longer and the deficit hole gets deeper too.
I can stay in shape in a million different ways. Cycling is the easiest. But not the only way.
When I can enjoy cycling, I get the workout at the same time. BUt I always know I can workout in different activity, for example hiking up some mountains.
quote:
See if you drive past some place, see some cyclists and say:
"damn, I wish I was riding with them!"
I see them all the time. I say "that's what I used to like doing, but I'm going hiking today". The only time I feel differently is when I'm walking on a dirt road that goes into tthe woods, I wish I were on my cross bike!
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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson5/29/15 11:15 AM |
Speaking of that, I'm going hiking today, well driving today, hiking tomorrow.
Aerobic exercise-wise... Hiking is significantly easier than biking. Biking significantly easier than running...
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/29/15 2:06 PM |
quote:
You could take up running like I did..
Speaking of running, I've done occasional trail runs. I quite enjoy it. It provides the mental stimulation of mtn biking (aka line picking) but at slower speed. It doesnt need dedicated trail like mtn biking. Any trail can be a running trail.
Sure, I could sprain my ankle if I got the line choice wrong too! Just like one can fall off a roller... With similar consequence. ;-)
quote:
Hiking is significantly easier than biking. Biking significantly easier than running...
Remind me what's the significant of aerobic excercise in the scheme of overall health/fitness? I know it gets one up the hill faster, but is that important?
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/31/15 5:26 PM |
Dented rim ...
...my car!
Instead of re-paving the whole (or half) lane of pot holes on the road where all the cars' wheels travel, they're putting black little wiggly strips matching the outline of the road crack & pot holes. So what looks like a pot hole is actually smooth road surface.
But the next segment of the road (different village), the black outline of crack hadn't been filled in and BANG! It ate the rim of my CAR!!!
Cringe to think had I been riding down this road on a bike and hit the crack thinking it's just different color of paving...
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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5101
Location: Nashua, NH6/1/15 5:31 AM |
When was the last time...
...that you had your vision checked? ;-)
Seriously, perhaps that's the issue. The one thing that all of these incidents have in common is that you didn't see something that was dangerous in time to avoid it.
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CYCLING TECH TALK FORUM
