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Adjusting a Shimano Triple
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Steve Katzman
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 452
Location: Orlando, FL

8/21/13 9:22 AM

Adjusting a Shimano Triple

The only bike I own with a triple is my Ultegra-equipped tandem. I've put over 33,000 miles on it over 10 years and I have never been satisfied with the shifting of the front derailleur. It seems like I have to compromise the ability to shift to the granny gear in order to get my other gears not to operate without the chain rubbing the derailleur cage in some cogs. I have learned to shift into the granny with the cassette in the 4th or 5th cog and then shifting the back into a lower gear, which is a work-around that gets the job done, but not totally satisfying.

Have any of you folks encountered this problem and found a solution that works? I was wondering if adding a few links to the chain or changing the size of the chainrings would help. Still using the stock 53-42-30. Any advice would be welcomed. Switching to a double is not an option. I really need those low gears to make it up some inclines. Perhaps the answer is that there is no fix and I have to suck it up with my current compromise.

Thanks!

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

8/21/13 9:43 AM

Well...

You could put a friction shifter on the front (DT or Barcon) and trim things manually. I've also seen a tandem that used a Campy Ergo shifter for the front end so as to permit trimming.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

8/21/13 10:11 AM

Spread out the FD cage a little so that the interior is wider. What is the Front DR ? The 6603 works better than any other to me... Not sure how it would work with 9S spaced triple...

Last edited by Sparky on 8/21/13 12:25 PM; edited 1 time in total

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

8/21/13 10:45 AM

Mine works pretty well

When the bike was first delivered, it worked perfectly. No rubbing in any gear combo. And can switch chainring at any gear.

Since I like Campy better, I swapped that out of my new bike and a year later, ended up hanging the Shimano drive train on a brand new cross frame. When the build was finished, it again worked almost perfectly. Only at the big-big and small-small end there's a very slight rub. Since those are not the usual gear combo, I live with it.

A few years later, I put on a pie plate cluster (11-32) and had to back out the B-screw (actually, flip the screw to get the spacing I need). That slows down the shifting noticably. And more rubbing in the "wrong" front-back combo. Still, I'm able to shift from almost any gear combo.

So, I can't help you with what tricks makes it work. All I can tell you is it can work and it has worked for me. Could it be yours are defective, albeit in a very minor way?


Last edited by April on 8/21/13 12:34 PM; edited 1 time in total

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SteveS
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 954
Location: Indiana

8/21/13 12:21 PM

Campy

Have 13 years on my tandem with thousands of miles. After the original 9s (nonrepairable) Ultegra shifters died I switched the shifters over to Campy Ergo and have been thrilled. Use a Shift Mate (?) cam converter on the rear derailer. It is great being able to shift and trim the front derailer with ease. In the middle ring I can use every cog on the cassette and use most of the cogs in the big ring and half the cogs in the granny.

Typically run a 52-42-30 with a 13-23 or 12-27 cassette. I have found that when going from the 42 to 30 chainring it does help to first move the rear derailer a couple of cogs to the 3rd position (27, 24, 21...). Everything just shifts more smoothly. Yes I can grind it into place but watching the terrain ahead and anticipating the shift makes it all flow more smoothly.

I recall somewhere in Santana's technical (marketing) info that the front derailers on tandems need to have their pivot point farther away from the centerline of the seatube because of the wider que in the rear end of a tandem. My stock Ultegra FD that came with my Santana has a longer nub on the seatube hanger that the FD mounts on. Not sure if it matters or not but that is what came stock on my tandem.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

8/21/13 12:30 PM

"front derailers on tandems need to have their pivot point farther away from the centerline of the seatube because of the wider que in the rear end of a tandem."

At least 135mm spaced rear even on semi modern for a decade+. I have seen 142.5 and 145mm rear spacing. Swing on front DR... do they make a FD for that wide a chain line center specific for tandems, I dunno..

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

8/21/13 12:42 PM

Mine works better than that


quote:
I have found that when going from the 42 to 30 chainring it does help to first move the rear derailer a couple of cogs to the 3rd position (27, 24, 21...). Everything just shifts more smoothly. Yes I can grind it into place but watching the terrain ahead and anticipating the shift makes it all flow more smoothly

Yes, if I shift from middle to small when the cog is in the second largest, it works considerably smoother. But I wouldn't call the front shifting "grind it into place" even when on the last cog. Don't notice any improvement when the chanin is further into the middle.

I now have a bit of rub when in middle+smallest combo. But I think that's got more to my less than perfect trim than intrinis inability of the setup. My shifting system is now in its 4th or 5th season. And I noticed considerable sluggishness starting this year. I think it's probably time to get some new cables.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

8/21/13 12:44 PM

One more thing

My Shimano shifter has a "trim" position...

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

8/21/13 1:14 PM

I think if you think of the triple as having high and low cross chaining [left and right] ranges you may have better success managing where you are and better shifting. but you need to know where you are chain wise. [except the 6600 triple]

That said, the 10 Speed Ultegra Triple is the best I have used yet. Although I've not used any Campy Triples, mostly MTB Rapid Fires and Bar Con setups
with 2 road triples. One 9s 6500 and this 6600 I got last year. [Elaine's Madone 105 Triple too]

The 6600 is the first road triple that I can say is no shifting compromise to a double, 'maybe' a touch if at all frankly. Mostly when you forget honestly. I think it may be the front DR honestly, and we have two triples here [not counting the 6600] that have 105 FDs that I can't say the same for. ;)

Just my observations/generalizations FWIW.

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SteveS
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 954
Location: Indiana

8/21/13 2:12 PM

Bump and Grind

Well maybe "grind it into place" was a bit extreme. It just does not shift as smoothly if the chain is all the way inside. Part of this could be from both the captain and stoker having to coordinate the momentary soft pedal during the shift.

As I recall the two position trim on the Ultegra triple was for the middle ring only although it has been so long since I took them off when the right lever failed that I don't remember for sure.

Not exactly on point but this talks about the chainline issue on tandems. My rear wheel has 160mm spacing. The extended mounting position of the front derailer could have been more marketing than technical, just something I remember when really into the techie stuff.

http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=tandem.9903.1016.eml

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Steve Katzman
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 452
Location: Orlando, FL

8/21/13 5:03 PM


quote:
I have found that when going from the 42 to 30 chainring it does help to first move the rear derailer a couple of cogs to the 3rd position (27, 24, 21...). Everything just shifts more smoothly.


Yes, that helps my shifting too. But I am uncertain as to why this helps. It seems counter-intuitive. Unless by moving to a smaller rear cog puts less tension on the chain, which is why I thought of adding a link or two.

It never occurred to me that the wider rear dropout spacing (mine is 145mm on a Co-Motion) might be a factor since the cassette is farther from the frame centerline than on a 135mm single. That would make the chain rub the FD when in the middle ring on the smaller cogs, which does tend to happen. This also explains why April did not have the same experience with her bike, which I assume is a single.

Sparky - I'm not sure of the part number of the FD. Just that it is a nine speed circa 2003.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

8/21/13 8:39 PM

Can you rotate the FD to take into account the slightly outward angle of the entire drive train?

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

8/22/13 1:38 AM

@april yep.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

8/22/13 5:22 AM

You can also convert the triple...

...into a low range double, which is what I did on my 'cross bike.

First, I removed the outer ring and replaced it with a bashguard that fits the middle ring closely, creating a 30 x 39 double. Next, I installed a MTB front derailleur (SRAM XO), since they're designed to work with small chainrings. The Campy front shifter works perfectly with the SRAM derailleur; shifting is excellent with no chain rub in any combination. With an 11-25 on the back, I have all the high end I need and plenty of low gears for the steep stuff.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

8/22/13 7:37 AM

Triple to double

I wouldn't do that on a tandem!

Having ridden tandem quite a few times, I can fully appreciate the difficulty in climbing. It's just impossible to time the power stroke of both riders so perfectly to produce a good output. I've also ridden in club rides when two strong riders on a tandem still having trouble keeping up with the group on long sustain climbs, especially when the cilmb is steep.

Tandem rocks on flats (and even small rollers). Climbing mountain passes? Not so much. (granted, there's probably no mountain passes in Florida ;-] )

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Steve Katzman
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 452
Location: Orlando, FL

8/22/13 3:25 PM


quote:
(granted, there's probably no mountain passes in Florida ;-] )


This is true but there are hills with inclinations of 13% less than 30 minutes outside of Orlando. Granted, these hills are all less than 1/2 mile long. We also take our tandem on many trips. We've ridden our tandem in 22 states including ME, VT, NH, NY, WV, NC as well as Austria, Germany, France, Canada and very soon a self supported tour of Japan. Have you heard of the Japanese "Alps"?

Brian - Good idea if it was just me on a single, but with my wife on back we need all the low gear we can get. Just ordered a 48-39-26 chainring set. I'm hoping that this *might* improve the shifting issues.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

8/22/13 3:59 PM

I've got it

Steve, I think it's just not broken in yet...:)

Can't help on the shifting, mine has always shifted OK with various combinations, but the most rear cogs has been 7. I have been a bit surprised that on other bikes I run some funky stuff like a VO 46/30 retro style double, and an old Suntour Microdrive triple, with 10 speed and everything works great.

Have a ball in Japan.
.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

8/22/13 5:56 PM


quote:
Have you heard of the Japanese "Alps"?

Yes! As a matter of fact, I've been THERE (and sat next to a snow monkey). It's an interesting idea to cycle-tour Japan. My first reaction is, the roads are narrow and drivers drive fast... hope they're more skilled (and focus) than the average American drivers.

Have fun!

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

8/22/13 10:08 PM

With barend shifters and what sounds like the exact same Ultegra FD on our tandem, no problems with the front shifting - the barends allow trimming of the FD position, and I find I have to trim it slightly when shifting from one end of the cassette to the otheron the big or middle rings. The granny only gets used with the largest two or three cogs.

Did you see the thread here on using Chorus Ultrashift 11 shifters with Shimano 9 derailleur/cassette. The Chorus levers have more adjustment available for FD trimming than the Shimano levers. UK shops such as Wiggle or Ribble have the Chorus shifters for around the $250 mark.

http://cyclingforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10404

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

8/22/13 11:42 PM

Illegal in Japan

I've also been to the Japanese Alps.
Tandem bicycles are illegal on some Japanese roads but not singles.

Sandiway

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Steve Katzman
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 452
Location: Orlando, FL

8/23/13 7:51 AM

@Sandi/April - So how steep should I expect to see in the Japanese Alps? Were you riding a bike?

We have American friends that have lived in Japan for several years, tandemed quite a bit there and never had any issues with the law. I think that the "no 2 on a bike" law was meant for singles, although it could technically be applied to tandems.

@April/Dan - Thanks for your good wishes!

@Nick/Andy - I am already using a bar end shifter to control my Arai drum brake. I guess I could control the brake from the other side, but I will wait until my new chainrings arrive first to see if they improve the situation. Thanks for the suggestion.

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SteveS
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 954
Location: Indiana

8/23/13 8:20 AM

Brake Control


quote:
I am already using a bar end shifter to control my Arai drum brake. I guess I could control the brake from the other side


I control our Arai brake using a friction thumb shifter mounted to the bars near the stem. That would free up your bar end shifter for use with the front derailer.

That being said we rarely even have the Arai mounted, maybe once every three years as our riding style and terrain rarely require it. Some considerations for the thumb shifter:
+ cheap
+ quick on/off without having to retape bars
+ can't be bumped with our knee
- ugly
- may not have room to mount if your bar real estate is filled with a bunch of electronics (lights & computers)
- have to take hand off the bars to engage, adjust and disengage

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

8/23/13 9:53 AM

Drum brake

Don't some tandemers mount their drum brake control on the stokers handlebar?

"Japanese Alps": no, I wasn't on a bike. It's not any worse than THE Alps (the one in Europe)

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

8/23/13 10:40 AM

I've ridden but not on a tandem. I've also ridden the Alps in France.

I can say Japan is steeper, sometimes unbelievably steep. Climbs are not as long.

Sandiway

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sanrensho
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 835
Location: North Vancouver

8/23/13 12:05 PM

Japanese Alps

Have not ridden there, but have snowboarded quite a bit in Hakuba and some in Kiso and Nozawa Onsen.

I can confirm that it is steep (enough).

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