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The names from the 1998 Tour
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Paul Datars
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 1229
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

7/29/13 7:27 AM

There's a term I heard thrown around, super-responder, apparently some people are far more predisposed to respond to certainly drugs...Lance was probably one of them, thus in a field with no drugs he wouldn't have been particularly special.

Even Tyler Hamilton couldn't figure out what Lance did in the last month or so before the Tour. He said they'd be roughly at the same level in June, then come July Lance was significantly better. Tyler even thought it might be possible Lance was doing something he didn't tell ANYBODY about, but this apparently was highly unlikely...like what would it have been???

Probably what "it" was, was Lance super responding to what everybody was doing.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/29/13 7:33 AM

Spot on Brian.

BTW I would ride with guy. He is more human now than ever. Like all of us he has failed in some way. The major problem that most people have is, they tend to forget that their heroes are human with human traits which are imperfect. Accepting that we will find that all heroes have dents and chinks in their armor.

Ride on Lance Armstrong. You finally did the right thing.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/29/13 2:30 PM


quote:
No dope, the guy never wins the Tour

That's not saying much.

No dope, no one wins the tour. Not against all the dopers.

It's not Lance Kool-aid. It's ALL Kool-aid, noting but Kool-aid! (I mean the "riding clean" part and all the testing are all smoke and mirror, aka Kool-aid)

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

7/29/13 4:05 PM


quote:
No dope, the guy never wins the Tour.

If his competitors dope, yes that's correct. If his competitors don't dope, he wins at least a couple and maybe more.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/29/13 5:00 PM

Doing the right thing

Erik, do you think he told the complete, whole truth to Oprah? If so, you're the first person I've heard of who thinks that.

Do you think that it's a coincidence that he waited until the overwhelming evidence against him was public, and no one (except maybe Brian :) believed him anyway? I think he simply determined that a partial confession was in his self-interest, just as he previously determined that lying was in his self-interest. His only alternative was to live the rest of his life as a pariah.

I saw the tapes of some of his previous depositions. That is one stone cold liar.

Sure, everyone else doped and lied about it. If you think that excuses him, that's your call.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/29/13 5:35 PM

Nope, don't think he told the whole truth.

BTW nobody ever does. Not even to ourselves.

He was human though.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/29/13 5:41 PM


quote:
Sure, everyone else doped and lied about it. If you think that excuses him, that's your call.

For those who never worship him, there's nothing to forgive.

Still quite possible he being the best of breed amoungst the dopers!

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/29/13 5:57 PM

No one ever tells the complete truth?

That's a convenient rationalization, but I disagree. IMHO plenty of people tell the complete truth in plenty of circumstances. I agree that nobody's perfect and that everyone makes mistakes, but that's different than saying that a bunch of self-serving half-truths are "doing the right thing."

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/29/13 6:07 PM

Best of breed?

Sure, he may have been. I have no way of knowing and don't care.

He lied his ass off and made millions from it. You can decide that's OK, that it's not OK, and/or that you don't care.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/29/13 6:43 PM


quote:
He lied his ass off and made millions from it. You can decide that's OK, that it's not OK,

It's not ok about the lying part. But as Erik pointed out, people lie when their interests are on the line...

As for he's making millions? What about the baseball players? The football players? Or the movie stars? Sure, maybe the movie stars don't dope but what warrants their making millions???

They provide entertainment. That's where the money comes from. So there're millions and billions, so what?

Lance isn't the only one who lie in order to continue making the millions. And he won't be the last.

You want to see a fair competition? Go to your local races!


quote:
and/or that you don't care

In the end, I don't care. Because I don't watch the races and I don't worship the winners.

Bottom line, I don't feel cheated. That's why I'm ok with it (/him).

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Tim123
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 252
Location: Adelaide

7/29/13 10:44 PM

It's funny as I really no longer care if they doped or not as it would seem very nearly every one of them was on something at one point or another. (See Zabel has now come out and admitted taking an extensive range of products from 96 - 03 after saying previously he'd only doped once in 96, which he had been busted for)
I also agree with the school of thought that doping is not a level playing field as some respond better to it than others, also some may have access to better programs and doctors than others.

The points about LA versus the rest, well, in my opinion every other doper quietly went about their business, yes they lied their asses off, but none of them that I am aware of made a complete asshole of themselves in the way LA managed so successfully (including public intimidation and humiliation, law suits, alledged fraud, screwed over ex team mates etc etc, the list is pretty extensive). I was a huge LA fan, but the Simeoni incident was the turning point for me...

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

7/30/13 6:35 AM


quote:
I also agree with the school of thought that doping is not a level playing field as some respond better to it than others...

OK, but natural talent and response to training aren't level playing fields either as some are more inherently capable.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

7/30/13 7:33 AM

truth and rationality

Regardless of truth telling, Lance is acting rationally, much like you are by not telling your wife she looks fat in that dress.

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Tim123
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 252
Location: Adelaide

7/30/13 2:01 PM


quote:
OK, but natural talent and response to training aren't level playing fields either as some are more inherently capable


Correct, the best cyclist wins. Last time I checked, natural born talent wasn't illegal. :)

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