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The names from the 1998 Tour
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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

7/24/13 5:08 PM

The names from the 1998 Tour

Names released by the French Senate. When the EPO test became available, the 1998 samples were retested for EPO in 2004. Is anyone really surprised at the results? Given the stringency of the test, I would say the "suspicious" names were doping for sure as well. In fact, O'Grady has just admitted to it.

Positive:
Andrea Tafi, Erik Zabel, Bo Hamburger (twice), Laurent Jalabert, Marcos Serrano, Jens Heppner, Jeroen Blijlevens, Nicola Minali, Mario Cipollini, Fabio Sacchi, Eddy Mazzoleni, Jacky Durand, Abraham Olano, Laurent Desbiens, Marco Pantani, Manuel Beltran, Jan Ullrich (twice), Kevin Livingston (twice)

Suspicious:
Ermanno Brignoli, Alain Turicchia, Pascal Chanteur, Frederic Moncassin, Bobby Julich, Roland Meier, Giuseppe Calcaterra, Stefano Zanini, Eddy Mazzoleni, Stephane Barthe, Stuart O'Grady, Axel Merckx

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

7/24/13 5:21 PM

Brief Summary: Nearly the entire peloton.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/24/13 5:31 PM

Which is why there are no winners listed for the LA years.

Last edited by ErikS on 7/26/13 4:17 AM; edited 1 time in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/24/13 5:57 PM

No one leaked all those results though...


Where these leaked or published ?

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

7/25/13 3:09 PM

The test results and names were published by the French Senate:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-senate-releases-positive-epo-cases-from-1998-tour-de-france

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

7/25/13 3:12 PM

Does this publication violate any agreement or contract with the riders?

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bikerjohnpostal
Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 700
Location: Grass Lake, Mi

7/25/13 9:25 PM

Livingston

Well I had hoped he was clean.... Guess not!

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/26/13 1:10 PM

Quandry

Lately the UCI is getting more and more exposure that they were the enabling mafioso when it came to doping.

Since it was not enforcing positives (or selectively enforcing them) at the time of the event, should the athletes be re-cast as victims?

Sure, that could be worded better.

But where does the responsibility reside, labor or management? Forget scheming Armstrong being labor.

This is a huge, grungy ball of wax and justice will never be righteously administered. For the good of the sport the asterisks and empty spots should remain unless a metaphorically injured athlete can justify his inclusion in the record book.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/26/13 2:30 PM

Y'all do realise that the UCI likes the scandals? It gets the sport in the news and serves as free marketing. Of course they were complicent to the doping and always will be with the current leadership.

I find it offensive to the sport to wash LA's name from the list of TDF winners if aren't going to wash the list of ALL the winners who were implicated in doping scandals. The dude cheated just like the rest of the bunch. There has to be even handed treatment for all.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/26/13 4:03 PM

My impression of LA is he was part of the leadership. He was at the heart of the conspiracy. Maybe some other riders were too, but most of them were following orders not giving them.

Also, with Armstrong there is another factor unique to his story. He is the warrior who beat cancer. And public perception is that he took that triumph and used it to actively cheat them. No other riders did that, even those stripped of titles like Landis and Contador.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

7/26/13 4:22 PM


quote:
My impression of LA is he was part of the leadership. He was at the heart of the conspiracy. Maybe some other riders were too, but most of them were following orders not giving them.

I agree that's the essence of why Armstrong was singled out for the harshest treatment. He was the instigator and enforcer, not an innocent victim.

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schneiderrd
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Fairfield, CA

7/26/13 5:28 PM

Come on, none of them were innocent victims. Let's face it, LA was the best among equals. He did not invent doping, he just perfected it. The one person who should be in jail is Landis for committing mail fraud.

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Paul Datars
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 1229
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

7/26/13 7:31 PM

My theory is that Lance got the harshest treatment not because he was the biggest doper but because he was the biggest ASSHOLE...I mean really, if he hadn't have made the comeback and thus continued to thumb his nose at both Floyd and Travis he never would have been 'caught'. And this doesn't even begin to address how he treated dozens of others over his career.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/27/13 8:22 AM

Perfected it?

That's a bit of a leap, don't you think? Granted, the team figured out how to dope and not get caught, but that doesn't mean that their doping program produced superior individual performance compared to other teams' programs. It also does not mean that Lance won because of better doping and it seems pretty clear that he had an edge in bike/training technology, attention to detail and plain old hard work. I strongly suspect that given any form of level playing field, he would have still been the best rider of his generation. I agree with Erik that it's pretty hypocritical to erase Lance's wins considering that there was universal doping among the top riders before, during and after his reign in the peloton.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/27/13 8:51 AM

I strongly suspect that given any form of level playing field, he would have still been the best rider of his generation.

Agree...

I agree with Erik that it's pretty hypocritical to erase Lance's wins considering that there was universal doping among the top riders before, during and after his reign in the peloton.

Also agree.

I told Elaine when they go back and retest the sky boys once they figure out what to test for we should not be 'too' surprised with any surprises...

I suppose it is a good thing that the teams are clear they will be nailed after the fact when and if...

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/27/13 2:47 PM

The biggest flaw in a "Lance the Leader" theory is why Johan Bruyneel and other bosses haven't been censured. Who contracted the doctors, who set up the facilities (hotel rooms,) who came up with the scheme. We hear how riders are for the most part incapable of that kind of operation whether they are too busy, too tired or just too unsophisticated.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

7/27/13 5:18 PM


quote:
We hear how riders are for the most part incapable of that kind of operation whether they are too busy, too tired or just too unsophisticated.

As a rule that description is accurate but Lance was the exception.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/27/13 5:43 PM

"As a rule that description is accurate but Lance was the exception."


According to who? Not that I think most riders in the Peleton have the multi-tasking capabilities of a person at the business level of LA.

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Tony
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 308
Location: New Jersey

7/27/13 10:02 PM


quote:
I strongly suspect that given any form of level playing field, he would have still been the best rider of his generation


How do you explain that until 99 Armstrong wasn't even on the radar screen as a GT GC rider? In fact, abandons in 93, 94, 96 and 36th on GC in 95.

As far as classics go, he doesn't even come close to what others of his generation accomplished.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/28/13 4:41 AM

Uh, nut cancer had him then.

Oh and the youngest world champ. Phenom tri geek who beat the world's best as a teen.

Rode away with a stage at the tour in 94 in a Jens Voight style break.

Could not TT like Mig. Could not climb like Marco. Even with cancer eating his lungs, brains and gut he did better than anyone you will ever meet.

Not taking up for the guy's doping past but I am going to say that he was no slouch during those years.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/28/13 5:57 AM

Pre-cancer LA trained like a boxer, he would get focused on a bout but there wasn't a big plan. Post-cancer his training mentality changed to a day-in day-out year-round building cycle where he would peak but also would never really lose race fitness.

He accepted that he couldn't win the TDF so he hunted stage wins. By the time he figured out his formula, a la Voight, the cancer was eating him.

What changed? A couple of things changed. First, look photos of him pre and post cancer. His upper body lost the mass of a triathlete. Second, his mindset changed to one that didn't accept defeat in the TDF. Maybe that second one both made him and destroyed him.

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Tony
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 308
Location: New Jersey

7/28/13 8:12 PM

No disrespect guys, but IMO you are still drinking the Lance Kool-Aid. The guy disappeared for almost the whole calendar, with notable exception of Amstel and Liege so he could stay under the radar and "prep" for July. Oh yeah, he lost weight, weighed his food and pedaled faster than everyone else. Talented genetics, yes. focused athlete, yes. No dope, the guy never wins the Tour.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

7/28/13 9:05 PM


quote:
Oh and the youngest world champ. Phenom tri geek who beat the world's best as a teen.

Rode away with a stage at the tour in 94 in a Jens Voight style break.

But those performances were fuelled by doping as well...

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/29/13 4:49 AM

Okay, I agree, he doped all his life. ( not sarcasm)

Where do you draw the historical exclusion line?

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/29/13 5:37 AM

Missing the point

No one here is denying that Lance doped (that would be dopey, since he's confessed). The point is that he was a superior athlete all of his life and doping simply put him on an even playing field in a sport where all of the top riders were doping. His natural talent, mental toughness and attention to detail are why he won.

Would he have won the TDF without doping? It's highly unlikely, because all of his competitors were doping. Essentially the situation was "dope or go home".

That's not meant to excuse anyone who doped for any reason, it's just reality. Doping is cheating, period.

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