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OT: I hate political posts, but
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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

6/11/13 7:27 AM

OT: I hate political posts, but

Is anyone else troubled by the NSA revelations? I consider privacy to be one our greatest freedoms, and the potential evil that could result from this seems to be an absolute trap the government will fall into. They were unable to resist the technology to build this spying network, and I doubt they will be able to resist the corruption that will result.

I'm also surprised at the lack of outrage by the general public. I guess most of us suspected it, but this confirmation is very troubling to me.

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

6/11/13 7:51 AM

62% of the public

I was going to continue, but I don't think I can. Yes, I'm outraged. Not so everyone, apparently:

http://gizmodo.com/the-majority-of-the-us-population-support-government-ph-512546667

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

6/11/13 8:34 AM

Wasn't there a quote attributed to Ben Franklin to the effect that;

"Those who give up freedom for the promise of security, will soon have neither".

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Doug
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 204
Location: In the shadow of the Valley of Death

6/11/13 9:36 AM

"We" , via our elected congress-creatures, had given up what passes for privacy shortly after 9-11. The "security needs of the country" became the rallying cry for all those laws. The current issue resolves down to the fact that very few REMEMBER that it happened.

"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that there is gambling going on here"!

YMMV
-dg

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

6/11/13 12:25 PM

I heard on NPR this morning that they can store a terrabyte of data at the size of a pencil, and they are building a 1 million square foot storage facility in Utah. They are vacuumimg the amount of data in the library of congress every 14 seconds.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/11/13 12:43 PM

What exactly is the difference between knowing it is being done and not knowing, in practical terms?

Rhetorical Question really...

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Alenhoff
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 240
Location: Detroit, MI

6/11/13 2:04 PM

I can certainly understand the concerns about the government tracking people.

Still, I find the outrage highly ironic in an age in which so many people voluntarily fill Facebook and other social media with incredibly personal information -- and are willing to reveal their personal location to apps that help them find cheap gas or locate the nearest doughnut shop.

People can be their own worst enemies...

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

6/11/13 2:45 PM

"WAR IS PEACE"
"FREEDOM IS SLAVERY"
"IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"

Theory, George Orwell, 1949

Practical implementation, US government, post 9/11

I can see 1984 making a comeback to the bestseller lists...

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Matthew Currie
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 800
Location: Vermont

6/11/13 3:16 PM

A cartoon, but it makes a point:

http://www.danzigercartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/danzcolor5652.jpg

e.t.a. I think in the Franklin quote it was that those who give up freedom for security deserve neither.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

6/11/13 3:30 PM

I feel it violates the very thing I swore to uphold The Constitution. Horrid comes to mind.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

6/11/13 4:02 PM


quote:
I think in the Franklin quote it was that those who give up freedom for security deserve neither.

My version was stated "to the effect that..." and I think they both agree.

One "advantage" to the Feds vacuuming up tons and tons of data is that the huge amount will be too much to really find anything of real value. Needle in a haystack comes to mind.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/11/13 6:13 PM


quote:
One "advantage" to the Feds vacuuming up tons and tons of data is that the huge amount will be too much to really find anything of real value. Needle in a haystack comes to mind.

I disagree. With AI software, you can get through a lot of data and find what you want to find real fast!

Google being THE ultimate example.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/11/13 6:15 PM

"violates the very thing I swore to uphold The Constitution"

You mean that thing that got sodomized by the patriot act?

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/11/13 6:35 PM


quote:
Still, I find the outrage highly ironic in an age in which so many people voluntarily fill Facebook and other social media with incredibly personal information -- and are willing to reveal their personal location to apps that help them find cheap gas or locate the nearest doughnut shop.

Exactly!

I think that maybe the issue. The world we live in has changed (actually for quite a while). Now, there's no stigma for being an outcast. You can be gay, a womanizer, burn the flag... just about everything goes. So, a lot of people don't have much motivation to be private. In short, a lot of people no longer value privacy! (Or, just plain stupid, like the politician putting their sexy photo on facebook)

It took 9/11 to merge the decrease value of privacy with government's perpectual desire to monitor its citizens, by the passing of many laws stripping pravacy away.

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 3234
Location: Midland, MI

6/11/13 6:57 PM

Modern privacy

People who never lived in a small town don't realize what privacy is. My favorite story is coming to a small town in Michigan's Upper Peninsula where my parent's old friends lived. We called them on the phone but the operator (yes!) said "They aren't home. They're at a party at so-and-so's house. Do you want me to connect you?" Now that's privacy :)

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4391
Location: metro-motown-area

6/11/13 7:15 PM

assuming it's used as advertised

i'm OK with it. there are LOTS of other things about the patriot act that i have a big problem with, but this particular thing...with mobile phones and the interwebs being an essential part of bad-guy communications, there's just no way to get around doing it this way.

the myth of privacy has long been shattered. lots of things in all aspects of life are more complicated now.

it sucks, but thats just the way it is...get over it.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/11/13 7:59 PM

The constitution protects us from "unreasonable" search... but in an age where the data about personal life is so "freely" available, mining of such info would seems quite... "reasonable"?

Meta data is an even murkier issue. My ISP knows every website I visit, much the same as the old-fashioned "telephone operator" knows to whom my phone calls goes to. Even the old fashion letters, while the contents were not public, whom the letter goes to are pretty public. And until rather recently, the postal service was actually a government branch!

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

6/12/13 5:29 AM

So this is what Obama meant...

...when he promised "change" and "transparency" back in '08. I guess we should have asked for a definition...

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

6/12/13 6:39 AM


quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and specifically describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


I'm not necessarily an originalist or a constitutional scholar , but it seems to me that the patent meaning of the first clause of the 4th is that warrantless searches may be presumed to be unreasonable, and that of the second is that warranted (and so presumably reasonable) searches must meet certain well-defined criteria. I'm by no means certain that the collection systems we're discussing meet all of those criteria (probable cause with solemnities, specificity as to places searches, specificity as to items seized).

The big item for me is probable cause . I can understand technology causing problems with specificity, but probable cause is a more straightforward concept.

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rickhardy
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 1492
Location: Needham outside of Boston - the hub of the universe

6/12/13 10:10 AM

1984


quote:
"WAR IS PEACE"
"FREEDOM IS SLAVERY"
"IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"

Theory, George Orwell, 1949

Practical implementation, US government, post 9/11

I can see 1984 making a comeback to the bestseller lists...


Sales of 1984 up 5,000% on Amazon:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/11/george_orwell_1984_sales_up_5_000_percent_on_amazon.html

Nick, how are you with stock picking? :)

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

6/12/13 10:49 AM

On a brighter note, around 60% of what they are sucking up is porn.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/12/13 12:06 PM

"On a brighter note, around 60% of what they are sucking up is porn"


And only a few % of that, good porn probably. ;)

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3377
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

6/12/13 12:18 PM

What is this place?

Avenue Q?

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

6/13/13 12:59 AM

solution

The solution is simple. Use encryption for private stuff.

Rest that you don't care if someone data-mines the info, leave as is.

You can't stop big brother from collecting the data: it's way too easy and tempting for governments.

Sandiway

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4391
Location: metro-motown-area

6/13/13 7:52 AM

sandy, good point...

...if everyone is so concerned about big brother listening in, https baby!

but, really, i think a big part of what they're tracking, if not the contents of messages, is the connections...who is talking to whom: social network analysis, linkage analysis, sequence analysis...all are HUGE in this space to reveal patterns of behavior and inter/intra-organizational connections.

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