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PDX Mall Shooting, Fook!
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

12/17/12 11:39 AM

PDX VS CT, see the difference a jam can make.

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Paul Datars
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 1229
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

12/17/12 12:54 PM

Gun registration...been there done that, REAL expensive and less than not very effective.

Out right bans of the stupid stuff is the only thing that has any remote chance of getting you on the road to some change, assuming of course you want at least a little success.

Personally I think the real problem isn't guns or the shooters, it's a system which allows a relatively small number of people such strength that even the POTUS (the most powerful man in the world!!!) doesn't have the balls to do remotely close to what is really necessary. What blows my mind is that in the land of the free, home of the brave, you can get so totally screwed by so few and not even realise it.

The thing about a lack of gun is the killer has to be far more committed to doing the job, it's far less convenient and often much more personal. It's kinda like how motorists are real brave about trying to kill you (the cyclist) right up until they get out of their car at which point they deny having even tried :-0

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

12/17/12 1:02 PM

" What blows my mind is that in the land of the free, home of the brave, you can get so totally screwed by so few and not even realise it."

I submit firearms is a low causal percentage overall, and that the lobbyist's pen/power is far more destructive overall. Even if you where to take the gun lobbyist out if the equation.

Realizing this and having the power to do anything about is two different things perhaps. One of the times the argument of having guns supports the flip side, the ludicrous dichotomy which that is.

[as I ponder the marshal law sections still active via the Stalin Act, err.. Patriot Act ;)]
Not sure levity is going to work there.. ;O

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

12/17/12 2:10 PM

There are a very large number of owners of 10-15rd police-style handguns out there who would strongly resist having laws passed to confiscate their purchases. It would be a huge political battle, and if the law passed, many would be kept or sold illegally (after being reported stolen), increasing the quantity in the wrong hands on the street.

You have to be very careful about passing any law these days that might increase the prison population. The new inmates will put the theoretically "lesser" criminals out on the streets. The prisons are too crowded to be packed with people whose guns got taken from their bedrooms but who likely no longer pose much of a threat to public safety.

Also, a big-cap mag is a lot easier to clone, manufacture and sell on the black market than a gun is, and criminals will of course want them if they are banned.

Lastly, there are differences between inner-city thug/gang violence and the rare but significant occurrances of psychotic weapons use. In the former, a solution is found in increased law enforcement efforts, and in the latter a disturbed individual needs the counsel of society's healers.
Trying to pass laws or spending bills that fix a particular circumstance, one needs to target the person or group where there is a statistical likelihood of violence, but sweeping arms legislation typically fails to do so, while adding to the burocracy and possibly the prison population.
What seems to have gone wrong in this country is that following wars, we found ourselves locked into denial about debt spending, which enriched the most-influential individual non-politicians and gave them the power to pursue more power through our debt to them. Spending became automatic, and we ended up with a culture of welfare that has bred a monstrous criminal class and a depraved (media-driven) culture. We are practically a defeated society, there, I said it. Every national politician these days enters office knowing that the biggest task at hand will be to keep the public in the dark about increasing debt while maintaining the appearance of a stable standard of living to a diminishing middle class. This of course greatly diminishes the pol's ability to create meaningful legislation and effective spending. No wonder the plutocratic elite can tell our leaders which countries to destroy in the name of their ripping off their natural resources (to later be sold back to us, at higher prices, on credit). While the pol's try to resist debt, the shadow-gov't plutocrats have always steered us to borrow more, as it gives them ever more power. We cry over a shooting where less than a hundred people are killed, yet we allow our armed forces to be directed to assist NATO in the killing of untold thousands of innocents at the whim of our economic masters.


Last edited by dddd on 12/17/12 2:43 PM; edited 1 time in total

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

12/17/12 2:21 PM


quote:
and criminals will of course want them if they are banned .

And they wouldn't had wanted if it it were NOT banned?

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

12/17/12 3:00 PM

"And they wouldn't had wanted if it it were NOT banned?"

Forbidden fruit always presents the greatest temptation you could say, especially among the criminal culture that feels resentments toward law.
Criminals seem to adopt a justification in getting what is theirs, even when it isn't. They have their own sense of justice, which can be pretty warped. Criminal gangs are like their own nation, that's what they are.
They might feel like they're getting an unfair shake by law enforcement, or by the entire society that they may have chosen to move to. It's a pretty mixed bag out there, but yes, there is always resistance to new laws as well as old ones.
Our immigration system has been tweaked to allow the world's criminal gangs to take root here in large numbers, and the plutocrats do good business with them, tax-free. They are such a large part of our current economy as to be respected by our biggest banks, and the politicians tread very lightly because of this.
People will tend to stock up on items when sale is soon to be outlawed, while criminals turn immediately to the black market and then do the same in perpetuity.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

12/17/12 3:30 PM


quote:
orbidden fruit always presents the greatest temptation you could say, especially among the criminal culture that feels resentments toward law.

So by that logic, we should abolish prisons? That's freedom the locked up criminals don't have. If they're free, they couldn't have cared less?

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

12/17/12 3:33 PM

Look at a real world example of gun control. In 1996 Martin Bryant shot and killed 35 people and wounded 21 more in the Tasmanian town of Port Arthur. In the wake of that shooting, all state and territory governments placed strict controls on semi-automatic weapons and high capacity magazines. In the decade leading up to that shooting, there were six or seven mass shootings in Australia. In the decade and a half since, there haven't been any.

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mag7
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 888
Location: Lake James, NC

12/17/12 3:51 PM

I think we need to focus on the brain (cause), not the bullets (symptom).

One idea would be to create a national hotline so that all these people who keep coming forward saying "yeah, I noticed that <the shooter> has been acting strangely, has become isolated, immersed himself into violence, etc. etc." could drop a dime.

Another idea would be to require a personality test as part of a gun permit.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

12/17/12 4:04 PM


quote:
I think we need to focus on the brain (cause), not the bullets (symptom).

I don't quite agree there.

It's not just any gun, but guns that can be fired rapidly, which didn't leave time for the children to escape. In other words, it's not just bullets, but lots of bullets!

There's plenty of justification for gun ownership. Some of those legitimate guns will occasionally fall into the hands of mentally ill person. But without the rapid firing capability, the death toll wouldn't even be the same order of magnitude!

I don't believe there's any perfect solution that would prevent gun death entirely. However, tackling both the mental health AND gun control issue will reduce both the frequency and severity when those two intersect.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/17/12 4:30 PM

Fire quickly, uh never seen a lever action?

I can run a pump as fast as I can shoot a auto loading shotgun.

An AR15 can be fired quickly, no doubt but they aren't the only thing that can do it.

BTW in response to the magazine capacity and hunting. Ya gotta be crazy if you think I fill a 30 round mag to hunt with, I neither need the number of rounds nor do I want to carry the weight.

5 rounds for deer in my AR10 (which is an fantastically accurate gun and in fact the best in the safe) and ten for hogs and yotes. The greater number of rounds in the AR15 for these are because I am shooting at multiple targets for the removal of invasive species to my area, not "hunting" at all. Ask the local farmers who call people like me.

Oh and during the Vietnam era the M16 had 20 round magazines.

I bought a new Pmag today. 30rounds. Make that 6 total. And I am not going to revolt or rebel. Just the opposite.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

12/17/12 4:54 PM

Erik, I hope you know; speaking for myself, and I suspect a few others that know you here for so long...

We do not think you the archetype, so please do two things. Don't feel you have to defend yourself, and PLEASE do not ever disprove this theory!

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

12/17/12 4:58 PM

Yep


quote:
As such, these weapons have no place in our society, 2nd amendment be damned.

There are lots of places that have the controls and enforcement you propose. We refer to them as "Police States".

Then again, since massive media coverage can encourage "copy-cat" crimes, how about "1st ammendment be damned" so they can be controlled too.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

12/17/12 5:01 PM

Some will see the Pmag setup as quite scary, since it looks like a military weapon:


http://www.laruetactical.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_detail/pa231793.jpg

But in reality, a shotgun with big pellets could perhaps be even more lethal against a group of people, rapidly causing immobilizing injuries that would allow the shooter to move in for multiple kill.

Yes, again, the bigger mag would make a killing spree more efficient, not that 6 shots (shotgun pellets) wouldn't be enough within smaller confines against a smaller group of people.


Last edited by dddd on 12/17/12 5:15 PM; edited 4 times in total

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

12/17/12 5:02 PM

And a lot of countries with controls are not police states.

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DPotter
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 953
Location: Portland, Maine

12/17/12 5:25 PM

We can have some reasonable additional controls and guns without taking anyone (other than a criminal or crazy persons) guns away. I don't want to take any normal, sane Americans gun(s) away. I just want to hold them responsible for the safe use and storage of their guns.

Will it work perfectly? Of course not. Will it help? I think so.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/17/12 5:30 PM

Pmags are the military mag of choice. Folks purchase and use them instead the beat up GI crap they are given in theater. Though some services are restricting poly mags because folks are purchasing lesser products from other makers.

And yes my rifle may look scary to many of you too.

I won't let you down Sparky, I am in for the good guys.

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

12/17/12 5:37 PM

I had a mother of several young children tell me once that her gun was kept in a safe place where the kids couldn't get to it and, in the next breath, say that it was near her bed where she could quickly grab it and use it.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4391
Location: metro-motown-area

12/17/12 5:56 PM

what of all this talk about "weaponizing" schools?

putting guns in the hands of teachers, administrators, security, etc.

i dont have kids and dont really have a vote, but that doesnt really seem like a good idea. schools will be like prisons instead of bastions of higher learning. it's hard enough to find good teachers these days...if a teacher is good with a weapon and tactics, i'm guessing they wont be good at teaching -- the need to stay current with relevant training and all.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

12/17/12 6:08 PM


quote:
putting guns in the hands of teachers, administrators, security, etc.


Bring the troops home from Afganastan and there might be enough of them to guard every elementry school? ;-)

Last edited by April on 12/17/12 6:17 PM; edited 1 time in total

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/17/12 6:10 PM

Pulling our collective heads out of the sand can go a long way. More often than not we ignore our surroundings and many times people pay the price for it.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4391
Location: metro-motown-area

12/17/12 6:13 PM

put an armed/trained federal guard in every school?

TSA is authorized to put armed air marshalls on every flight, why would our schools and children not merit the same investment in security?

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

12/17/12 7:13 PM

Not a Contradiction


quote:
I had a mother of several young children tell me once that her gun was kept in a safe place where the kids couldn't get to it and, in the next breath, say that it was near her bed where she could quickly grab it and use it.

You can keep a gun in a locked steel box in a nightstand next to your bed where it can't be gotten to by children (or curious adults for that matter) but is still quickly accessable to the owner who knows the combination. There are secure pushbutton combination locks that can be operated without looking if you know the sequence.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

12/17/12 7:49 PM

"And yes my rifle may look scary to many of you too. "


Not me, I just think the reason it looks like that has a lot to do with the problem.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/17/12 7:53 PM

Remember it is designed based on ergonomics, nothing more.

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