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PDX Mall Shooting, Fook!
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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3285
Location: NorCal

12/15/12 1:45 AM

That's interesting, showing nat'l murder rate trending past an all time low in 2011.

ABC News announcer just said Gallup polls of US'rs (taken just after recent mass-shootings) show only 3 in 10 support stricter gun laws.
Reason given was "distrust of the Federal Gov't".

I can understand the feds not wanting too many armed citizens as we (our financial system) approach our credit limit, with recent mass protests in Greece (in response to austerity measures) showing how much group-anger can coalesce in response to the citizenry losing their pensions and other benefits. Imagine, here, if Social Security could no longer be sustained, amid currency devaluation (not unimaginable in light of recent fiscal crisis emergencies, all promises notwithstanding).
Not just the politicians, but the plutocrats (who have ownership of the media co's) are obviously anxious to maintain their position (and their bought politician's positions) through a more-timid public, explaining their obnoxious tendency to make gun control seem like a normal thing to do (you don't hear too many of the "other 7 out of ten" voices on the news).

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

12/15/12 8:23 AM


quote:
5. Right now, it's been turned into an entertainment event. Dirty Laundry, remember? Let's not contribute to that.

Let the dead have their dignity, the wounded their healing, the families their grieving, for a little while.

Well I guess the entertainment value is too much to resist, even for the forum?

It's only 24 hrs from the event, NOW!

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4551
Location: Nashua, NH

12/16/12 5:01 PM

It's too bad that the graph...

...doesn't go farther back in time. It would be nice to have the numbers from before 1968, when you could buy firearms via mail-order with essentially no restrictions. The murder rate was quite low back then, which contradicts the "easy availability of guns argument commonly made by the gun haters.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8320
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/16/12 5:58 PM

Guns have not changed a lick. People have.

The nation, no the world, is nothing like it was 50 years ago.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17552
Location: Portland, OR

12/16/12 6:02 PM

"Guns have not changed a lick. People have"

Actually, maybe it is that the 'Rambo' set have changed guns. Romanticizing perhaps is why an AR15 both exist and is sold in it's current iteration, [EDIT] and sales volume.


Last edited by Sparky on 12/16/12 7:10 PM; edited 1 time in total

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8320
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/16/12 7:07 PM

Maybe, but my bet is, lots of ex DOD like me, lots of folks concerned about the nation's future and lots of folks reading the 2nd and a better understanding of why it is there. George and his motley band carried the AR of the day.

I fit all of the above.

I have had my days in uniform, I don't feel the need to pretend in any way.

BTW my AR15 is used to dump vermin like wild hogs and coyotes.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3304
Location: Springfield

12/16/12 7:46 PM

No hater here but,

Please defend 30 round and larger magazines.

Last I heard most of the victims had multiple entry wounds and were under the age of twelve.

Perhaps the NRA needs to get further define and promote responsible gun ownership.

Imagine it starting a campaign to convince as many people as possible that gun ownership has a tremendously positive impact on society. Granted, some percent will not be convinced.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3285
Location: NorCal

12/17/12 2:31 AM

Around here, they banned our handy 15-rounders, what most police-spec handguns were designed around.
Ostensibly it was to prevent cops being out-gunned, but very few criminals can shoot even half as good as any law-enforcement officer, to say nothing about the quality of their equipment.
But though theoretically it does keep teenagers from emptying such large clips at each other in the surrounds of the city, their gun purchases aren't actually even restricted by laws, since they buy them off the black market.
And we're not at all like Japan here. Our borders have like train tunnels going under them, full of whatever the black market needs to meet demand.
Also, I wonder if banning certain items just makes them all the more precious to the cred of street criminals, possibly boosting demand AND supply beyond what would be available without the laws(?). I say this because the foreign influx of illegal guns goes tax-free, possibly being cheaper than shop prices, esp as each model starts to go out of fashion.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8320
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/17/12 3:57 AM

Gun laws only apply to law abiding citizens.

What we need is better mental health care and people to come forward when they know someone is unstable. All of these cases have been because the people who commited the crimes where sick. Why is that being ignored?

There was a case in the Scandinavian country about a year ago of a crazy shooting a bunch of kids at camp. He was and is sick too.

About the 30 round magazine (they aren't clips). Tell George Washington that the people are limited to just 2 shots worth of patch, ball and powder for their brown besses.

There are MILLIONS of magazines in the hands of lawful citizens who won't turn them in and criminals who won't even consider it. They aren't going anywhere.

BTW, the crimes of recent could have been commited with a wooden stocked Ruger 10/22 or Remington 597. Two very common .22LR Rifles with wooden stocks and they don't look "scary". The guns are not the problem.

Mental health care, proper parenting and the entertainment industry are the problem. Video games are pornography without sex folks. Our society accepts violence but hides healthy sex. WTF? Our children are being hardened to violence.

The Batman series of movies is a good example. They have gotten progressively more violent and dark with every remake. The world society is impotent to violence and it keeps taking more and more to "get society off".

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4551
Location: Nashua, NH

12/17/12 6:27 AM

Well said, Erik.

One thing I have noticed in the initial media coverage of this tragedy is that there was considerable emphasis on the mental health aspects. Perhaps something positive will come out of that.

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3201
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

12/17/12 7:47 AM

Hmm.

This is more than a rant than anything else. I've watched the talking heads on both sides for the past few days and I'm sick of it.

OK, it's clear to me that gun control per se would almost certainly not have stopped this shooting. It's also clear to me that it's unlikely that mental health care will catch all problems.

So what do we do? Throw our hands up in the air and give the fuck up?

It seems to me that there may be some combination of these and other approaches that might help, a little.

Very few people I've talked to about personal protection and/or hunting see a need for 30-round magazines. Perhaps we might consider no longer permitting manufacture and/or import (perhaps we already do?) of these *and similar* products, and some kind of incentive program for turning in extent ones?

Perhaps we need to train school administrators better in the recognizing of people with mental health issues? Perhaps the general public could be made more aware? Decades ago, I was talking by phone with a friend who exhibited some serious mental health issues (sounded suicidal to me). I lived 1,000 miles away. After I got off the phone, I called their local police, and as a result my friend spent some time somewhere they didn't want to be. I got some thanks later on, though.

We're not looking at a problem with one single answer. The people who say gun control per se would have stopped this shooting are full of shit. So are the people who say "more guns, less crime."

It's absolutely true that guns don't kill people, and that most people with guns don't kill people. It's also absolutely true that people without guns kill people.

But even in light of those statements, guns are the most efficient means for killing people you can buy OTC.

Culture is a problem as well--I recently watched The Dark Knight Rises (my family saw it while I was in the hospital). Loads of fun as people are slaughtered left and right. Likewise 24. Likewise this, that, and the other.

But I don't think Batman is any more likely to 'cause' killings than is the easy availability of weapons.

Perhaps we (and by 'we' I mean law abiding citizens) need to focus on taking more of an interest in other peoples' lives, recognize that rights can be limited, and sometimes need to be, give up some (not all, by any means) of our weaponry, and learn to recognize the mentally ill.

There are a hell of a lot more of us than there used to be. 50% greater population in the US, 120% greater population in the world, than when I was in high school.

It's not the same world, folks. Something has to change.

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DPotter
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 951
Location: Portland, Maine

12/17/12 8:00 AM

As a gun owner this is what I would like to see:

1) ALL guns must be registered to their owners at time of acquisition. It is the responsibility of the current owner to see that any new owner is properly registered. Failure to register is jail time.

2) Gun registered to you gets used in a crime? You are going to jail (as well as the perp) for failing to control your weapon.

3) Ban on high cap magazines. If Erik and his friends decide they need to rebel, they'll be able to get or make the mags they need. If they can't their rebellion is doomed for lack of competence anyway.

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3201
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

12/17/12 8:10 AM

wrt 1 & 2

There would need to be a provision for loss by theft or destruction, clearly. But I would expect that if you "lost" a significant number of weapons (and that could be a low number) there would be a reasonable presumption that you are in fact dealing.

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DPotter
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 951
Location: Portland, Maine

12/17/12 8:15 AM

Yes, loss by theft, you report it. Destruction, most times you should be able to produce the remnants but same procedure.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

12/17/12 8:22 AM

Huh?


quote:
2) Gun registered to you gets used in a crime? You are going to jail (as well as the perp) for failing to control your weapon.

Do we apply this to cars too? If your car is stolen and used in a crime, do you get prosecuted for "failing to control your automobile"?

BTW, legally purchased guns are "registered" at the time of sale (Federal Form 4473) and can be traced back to the original purchaser. Handgun purchase records are forwarded to the state police while long gun purchases are kept at the selling dealer but available to the police on request. Obviously, non of this matters if the gun is stolen or purchased from the black market. [/quote]

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3201
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

12/17/12 8:34 AM

Applying this to cars...

Sometimes, yep. See: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/car-accidents-negligence-when-you-29731.html

Unreported theft might well lead to liability.

But, as I said, I think there would need to be exceptions to handle theft and loss--reporting for a start.

Some criminal liability for certain acts committed with a weapon that you should have under your control might be a new thing...haven't looked...but it's not entirely unreasonable--is it?

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3304
Location: Springfield

12/17/12 8:36 AM

As the father of a 25 year old schizophrenic son I can attest to the overworked staff of public mental heath providers. The anti-psychotic medications today are tremendous improvements over those from even the late '90s. My son lives on his own and takes his, but he is surrounded by - well - some pretty broken people. I could go on. I worry about funding, you bet.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2620
Location: hillbilly heaven

12/17/12 9:33 AM

I own 2 long guns, both single shot. I don't want them nor do I need them. I plan to have them smashed. I've had enough.

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DPotter
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 951
Location: Portland, Maine

12/17/12 9:49 AM

Gun show and private sale guns are legally purchased but not registered.

I do not propose this a a cure. But I believe it is part of a solution. I am a gun owner, and I support the 2nd amendment. But I am tired of hearing about kids picking up an unsecured weapon and getting hurt or hurting someone else. I'm tired of parents who keep loaded weapons in their nightstand or in their purse, where their kids have access to them. When that gun ends up in someone's school locker, that is the owner's fault.

Americans have a right to keep and bear arms. We also have a right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If your failure to control your WEAPON causes someone else harm, YOU should be held responsible, along with anyone else involved.


Last edited by DPotter on 12/17/12 11:05 AM; edited 1 time in total

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

12/17/12 10:54 AM


quote:
Gun show and private sale guns are legally purchased but not registered.

That's correct in some states but only applies to long guns. Handgun transfers are all required to go through an FFL (Federal Firearms License) holder.

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DPotter
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 951
Location: Portland, Maine

12/17/12 11:05 AM

OK. Then add long guns to the registration process, as well as all private sales.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17552
Location: Portland, OR

12/17/12 11:15 AM

Two Guns, and having had enough

I also am down to two guns. My Grandfathers 1963 Colt .22 Target semi-auto in near perfect cond. And a Remington 870 pump shotgun with a 17 and 28" barrel I got when I was like 19 years old.. I always think of the .22 going to my youngest, which would make it have been through 4 generations. But the shotgun has not seen the light of day since when the boys where in scouts for shooting merit badges when in TN, and 20 years before that it sat cleaned and in the case with an occasional oiling visit to the air. Well both, I actually never fired the .22 since I inherited it over 20 years ago, but had fired it as a kid in the summers etc.

I really have little reason to keep them short of knowing they won't be used for anything bad in my possession. Something I can not control if I was to sell them. I can live with the thought of that less than the feeling of not really wanting them anymore.

I use them and fire them so infrequently that a life defending situation which I might grab one is more likely to go wrong from rust and inexperience than anything else. Thus the aluminum bat 'old trusty' is at hand in case of crackheads or occasional zombie apocalypse.

The other problem potentially is that I do not want to shoot anyone, and plan on getting though this life without taking another. This almost insures failure if I point one of my guns at someone.

Or do I change irreversibly in a way at that point in time that goes against everything in my heart. I hope to never find out, but the guns being there or not sure will impact that, let's face it.

At least since the kids are gone, they live without trigger locks 24/7. The thought of an accident with the kids around always made me a little... something...


Last edited by Sparky on 12/17/12 12:21 PM; edited 1 time in total

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

12/17/12 11:20 AM

Sure, no amount of gun control will magically SOLVE the problem once and for all. But is that the argument we shouldn't have ANY gun control? Or even look at how BETTER refine the existing gun control laws? Yes, like banning future sale of large count magazines!

The argument that ANY law will be useless because criminals don't follow the law is absurd. If we follow that logic, we don't need laws, period!

And like it or not, the gun (and most likely the high count magazine) in this particular case was LEGAL under current law. Had it not been allowed, the mother probably wouldn't have had such high magazine in the house. Then, perhaps only a few people, instead of 27, would have been killed.

More gun control will not eliminate all gun related killings. And no amount of mental health reform will entirely eliminate it either. But the former would reduce the death toll, while the latter would hopefully reduce the frequency of such incidents. Just because we don't have a perfect solution is no argument for not making any step towards a better solution.

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3653
Location: Brooklyn, NY

12/17/12 11:23 AM

And shouldn't all gun owners sign up for a militia???

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 735
Location: Long Island, NY

12/17/12 11:35 AM

I have not as yet heard any convincing arguments that owning automatic pistols or assault rifles in any way contribute to either a more secure home or business, or increase the enjoyment of hunting. The argument is made that a 6 shot revolver for some home or personal defense is as useful as a 15 round Glock. Likewise I'm not getting that owning an AR15 or similar weapon, with an easy to purchase 30 round magazine, is necessary for hunting. Do you really feel better after shooting that lone coyote or wild boar to know you have 29 rounds available ?.

As such, these weapons have no place in our society, 2nd amendment be damned.

Think about the fact that there roughly 4 million assault rifles currently owned by private citizens in the US. Also consider that roughly 3.5 million soldiers fought in Vietnam. What would society in general have said if we had allowed every one of those returning Vietnam vet's to purchase and keep all those M-16's, "Oh, we'll disable the full auto function, but it can be semi-auto and you get to keep and use the 30 round magazines". That would not have happened. The armed services knew there were too many nut jobs to allow that yet we allow exactly that to occur now thru lax laws that are constantly under attack by the NRA and their supporters.

We need a complete ban on military style assault rifles or any rifle/long barrel that carries more then 5 rounds.

We need a complete ban on automatic pistols that can carry more then 5 rounds.

We need a complete ban on all those ammo clips and magazines out there that carry more then 5 rounds.

We need a buyback program to get this stuff out of our society.

We need laws that prevent the manufacture and or importing of these weapons and/or the sale to other then the military or those in law enforcement.

We need laws that make you a criminal if you do not follow these laws. You can own a single revolver (but only in some circumstances) and any number of rifles or shotguns for hunting.

SB

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