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Experience with Rotor 3D+ cranks?
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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/6/18 5:10 AM

Experience with Rotor 3D+ cranks?

The right side pedal bushing in my second FSA K-Force Light crank has loosened up, so I need to replace it. I found a good deal on Rotor 3D+ cranks, but I want to see anyone here has used one and what your impressions are.

The crank in question is for BBRight bottom brackets, but the information I've seen is that the cranks themselves are universal and the only difference between them is the spacers they come for specific BB designs.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/6/18 8:48 AM

I've wondered how the BBRight and BB90-92 Trek are actually different. Are you installing on a Cervelo?

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/6/18 1:04 PM

No, it's going on my Look 585...

...with a BSA threaded bottom bracket. I looked into BBright and it's kind of weird. The left side of the BB shell is extended outward by 11mm and has in internal bearing. On the right side, the bearing is in the same position as with other press-fit systems, but there's a spacer on the axle, which probably varies depending on whether the crank is BBright-specific or not.

The descriptions I've found of the Rotor 3D+ crank indicate that it's universal and will work with any 30mm BB standard. They make several BBs to work with it.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/6/18 1:15 PM

Interesting, I only had a BBr crankset in my possession once and it was not going to work on what I was supposed to put it on. That was a while ago and I had dismissed & extrapolated [as I recall] using BBr on anything but a Cervelo was not going to fly.

I did put a Carbon SRAM GPX on my BB90 Madone. Not really GPX once you put the smaller bearing on the non drive side as compared to a GPX BB install. Shedding the GPX threaded BB make for as light a setup and one could expect.

And am about to take off the Red Rings for the Rotor oval rings I had touched on in another thread. As soon as the frame fittings for Di2 arrive. Sold the Domane yesterday thus no Di2 on a bike currently. Still have a groupo in a box.

I both digress and hijack, sorry...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/6/18 2:33 PM

If a crank was BBright-specific...

...it appears that it would only work on another BB system with the right side bearing in essentially the same location, like BB30 or PF30.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/6/18 2:38 PM

The left non drive is where I ran into trouble with the BBr.
It should be called BB Left perhaps.

The BB90 OTOH has a protrusion in the carbon frame/shell on the drive side, and the non drive side is all the way out the width of a BSA outer threaded bearing would be. Installers left hand in pic is drive side.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2496
Location: hillbilly heaven

5/6/18 5:24 PM

"Sold the Domane yesterday"

This requires some explanation:)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/6/18 6:03 PM

The Endurance 58 just did not fit as I like pretty much.

Still not short on bikes, let's face it. Pun being the 58 Domane was short on Top tube.

And of course the 60 Endurance was longer, but nose bleed on the headtube. I wanted to slam the 58, so 1" higher slammed 60 was out of the question. The RSL geom I am sure would have been good in a 60.

If we did not get the second new Honda, I may have done the RSL up for the $6k price tag. Honestly, the 11 speed Chorus Colnago reboot has really jazzed me to ride, And I guess I don't want a 12k bike, even if 50% off is only a 6k bike.

And the Scott looks like I will get buried with it, so some reorganizing until my mood swings again I guess. ;)

With a 56.7 TT on a 58 Domane, I figured Trek knows what the Endurance Geom is for the size. My normal TT is 58-9, albeit as short as 11CM stem these days. I tried raising, them lowering the bars on it, just did not seem to get it right for me. Yes, with the cockpit length same as bikes I am lower on bar wise. Even in my old decrepit state.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/7/18 5:02 AM

BB90 appears to be...

...the standard 68mm road BB plus 11mm on each side, which is the same dimension as external bearing cups. BBright only has the 11mm increase on the left side and the asymmetry seems like an odd way to go. Really, why would you want the right side bearing to be inboard more than the left? That's probably why Cervelo (the originator of BBright) is the only brand using it, AFAIK.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/8/18 11:21 AM

The crank and BSA30 BB are on the way

I couldn't get any definitive answers on the fit, so I decided to just give it a shot, as I can always return the parts for just the cost of shipping.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/8/18 2:27 PM

BSA30 BB, did not know that existed. Hope you post when you get it all in [both in mail and bike]

I just pulled a BSA SM-BBR60 BB out of the box to throw a caliper on it. The inside dimension of the threaded section is 31.4. First thought was any flex may make for some rubbing if a BB30 crank Spindle is to thin wall and or has flex. But then again, 30mm pipe flex? But .7 mm clearance??

Does the crank spindle have a smaller diameter middle section? I seem to recall the BBr cranks were a little bigger at the bearing loading surface.

EDIT: Brian you got me googling on this.

Did you consider the spindle length? What BSA-BB30 did you decide on/order?

I saw this on the Praxis site:

Will not work with standard BB30 cranksets. PLEASE MEASURE YOUR BB30 CRANK SPINDLE LENGTH!

For use with 30mm diameter cranks with a spindle length of at least 104mm

Thus, what of Q factor if greater than 104mm spindle etc. Guess you, and hopefully then us will find out. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/9/18 5:36 AM

I ordered the BB to match the crank

They're both Rotor, which I figured was the safe way to go, since they specify that the crank will work with all of their available BBs. I'll have the parts by the weekend and we'll see what happens.

I'm having a bad few days equipment-wise, as I broke a spoke in my rear wheel last night while on a group ride. It's frustrating and even somewhat embarrassing, since I built the wheels and there's no way that should be happening, even with 10K miles or so on them. I broke one in the same wheel a year and a half ago (to the DAY, believe it or not), so I think I'm just going to rebuild it.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3214
Location: NorCal

5/15/18 12:08 AM

I'm in on this adventure since I happen to have a Rotor 3D30 crankset that I pulled from a new Cervelo R5 with BBRight.
I struggle to understand what, if anything, is different about this crankset, since I find no BBRight markings on it.
I first learned of the BSA30 bb when I went online to try to find what the crankset was worth before I took it in trade for labor.

So I just assembled the BBRight crankset and measured the exposed 30mm spindle length between the arm is 78mm with the thin seal ring and plastic shim in place.
Without the seal and shim the spindle measures 80mm with the arm bolt tightened.
So no way is there room for a 68mm shell and two 11mm external bearings, but it could be fitted to a regular BB30 frame with appropriate spacers.

And speaking of equipment let-downs, first it was a spoke pulling a chunk out of one of my newer-looking Open Pro wheels, then a week later I found several eyelets pulling through a Mavic Module E2 rear rim on a bike I had let sit unused for a year.
Now I feel like I'm just waiting for the next hub flange or stem clamp to suffer tension creep yield fracture.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/15/18 12:26 AM

"Maybe it's the spindle length"

I think it is the outboard NDS bearing seat location, being more outboard than anything else I have seen.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/15/18 5:37 AM

Here's the full scoop on Rotor BBright cranks

Cervelo requested a special version of the crank that did not require the use of a spacer on the right side, so Rotor made one with a different spider and lockring that incorporated an 11mm spacer. It works with BBright and I assume it will work with BB30 or PF30, with the addition of a spacer on the left side.

The good news is that Rotor will supply the standard spider and lockring free of charge, under the following scenarios:

- Contact a local dealer and they will ship the parts to them at no cost.

- Send them a pre-paid UPS label for a 1 lb shipment and they will ship the parts directly to you at no additional cost.

- Send the crank to them and cover shipping both ways, and they will swap the parts for you at no additional cost.

Provide your BB width and the brand of BB and they will include the necessary spacers.

Service-wise, it doesn't get much better than that!

They recommended the Enduro CT003/2 tool for making the change. The lockring has to be torqued to 52NM (38 Ft lb), so a strong tool is required. It looks a bit like the Rotor tool, but it has what appears to be a hole for a 1/2" drive torque wrench instead of the through hole for the axle, which isn't actually necessary.

BTW, the 3D+ crank has been replaced by the Aldhu, but chainrings for it will continue to be available going forward.

I currently have the parts and tools on the way to convert my crank. It cost me $11.04 to ship the parts from Rotor via UPS. If I like it as much as I expect to, I'll probably buy another as a spare, since once it's converted, it will fit any of our bikes with the addition of the proper spacers.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3214
Location: NorCal

5/15/18 8:38 AM

Thanks for all that!
Sounds like the spider conversion is specifically to facilitate use with either a BSA30 or BB90 setup.
Did you mean you were going to buy a spare crankset, spare spider or spare tools?
I might do this conversion but I still haven't decided if I want to sell mine and have not decided on what frame I might put it on. The extra cost of the BSA30 bb has me thinking I should just sell it since it is still new, and I had a hard time seeing how a full 11mm could be pulled out of the spider and retaining ring without some structural compromise.
From reading their papers I see the BBright concept being more about increasing the size of the tubes attaching to the bottom bracket shell than about increasing the spacing of the bearings. As such, it makes sense to me since those tubes can't really exploit the added 11mm shell width to the right without clashing with the chainrings or pushing the front derailer out too far. But then again the spider is just acting as a spacer but with no reduction of the spindle extension or making the RH crankarm lower in profile, so bb90 might be better overall.
I read somewhere that until perhaps a decade or two ago that Calfee put their straight-tapered (no flattening) RH chainstay out so far as to require a longer-than-normal bottom bracket and with imperfect chainline, just to exploit the structural benefits, and I guess that BBRight is somewhat of a similar attempt to subtly improve structure above other considerations.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/15/18 10:03 AM

I an still on the fence about the need for 30mm spindle for the average even strong amateur. I guess the average weight saving is not moot though.

That said, my personal trek with non threaded BBs is the OS/BB Spesh and the BB90 on the Treks. If I only knew then what I know now when I had the OSBB. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/15/18 11:31 AM

Once you change the spider and lockring on the crank, it becomes their standard "UBB" version, which is "Universal Bottom Bracket". It will then work with any BB standard, with the appropriate spacers. That's why I'm thinking of getting a spare crank; it will work on any of my bikes.

I suspect that the BBright crank will work on BB30 or PF30 with no modification, since those standards both require spacers on cranks that are not specifically designed for them. You should only need to add one wide spacer on the left side and possibly some thin shims to take up any slack. If you call Rotor, I'll bet they'll know exactly what you need and perhaps they'll provide those parts, too.

You can get BSA30 BBs from several sources and I've seen them for as little as $40 from FSA. I found the Rotor BB for $55 shipped from Glory Cycles.

It appears that all of the crank manufacturers have moved to 30mm BB spindles on their new models, so there's some degree of "future proofing" in going that way.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/15/18 12:33 PM

"It appears that all of the crank manufacturers have moved to 30mm BB spindles on their new models"

Shimano? I see Campy has headed that way...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/16/18 5:30 AM

Shimano seems to be the only major holdout, sticking with 24mm steel spindles instead of 30mm alloy. One other advantage of 30mm is brand cross-compatibility. So far at least, there aren't any oddball versions with different left and right side bearing diameters, so one manufacturer's 30mm crank will fit another manufacturers BB with nothing more than (perhaps) a difference in spacers. Other manufacturers are doing what Rotor does, making a single crank that works with any 30mm BB design with the addition of appropriate spacers.

Who knows, perhaps we're headed for a "BB convergence" and an end to the insanity of the past decade or so.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/16/18 9:45 AM

there aren't any oddball versions with different left and right side bearing diameters

SRAM 22/24mm GPX

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/16/18 11:07 AM

That's what I was referring to; there isn't anything like that in 30mm diameter. Every one I've seen is 30mm on both sides. They all use either spacers, a preload adjuster or both to work with various 30mm BB types. There's no funkiness with shoulders on spindles and such.

BTW, Nashbar has the FSA 30mm BSA BB on sale for $29.99.

https://www.bikenashbar.com/cycling/specials-10000/week-of-05-14-7000000000000001035/moving-sale-components-up-to-85-off-7000000000000001043/fsa-megaevo-bsa-68mm-73mm-bottom-bracket-yb-mebb-base

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/16/18 11:32 AM

Stock up on your wavy washers I guess..

I kind of like the GPX design. The way it locks the side load to the left axle/bearing. At the cost of some weight though.

Having said that, I got a 22mm/ID left bearing for my BB90 Madone and have a Force Carbon SRAM GPX in there with wavy washer ala BB30, but a BB22/24. ;)

It was perfect in use from day one, and loosing the BSA GPX BB part of the system takes away said weight penalty. That said the 6800 chainset also perfect in use day one.


Side note: It has RED 34/50 rings and I am about to put my loose Di2 6870 group on and the Rotor Q-Rings 36/53 rings on a spare 110BC spider. As soon as I build up the DIY internal double capacity battery setup and get a RC car charger etc...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4144
Location: Nashua, NH

5/22/18 6:52 AM

I installed the crank last Friday...

...and took it for a hard ride on Sunday that included a hill with a Giro-esque section of 18%. It was stiff and quiet, and highlighted how noisy the old crank had been (I guess it was trying to tell me it was dying).

The conversion process from BBright to universal fit wasn't bad, but getting the excess Loctite 271 off of the crank arm spline area was a bit of a pain. Heel clearance is minimal, which is pretty typical of universal-fit cranks.

I like it enough that I ordered a second one, the conversion parts and a 46/30 "Spidering" in case I either want to use it on a gravel bike or need lower gearing on a road bike.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16640
Location: Portland, OR

5/22/18 10:11 AM

Did you snap any pics to post?

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