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mfurtick
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 51
Location: Lexington, SC

6/12/13 12:24 PM

Sad news

I haven't been posting but do pop in from time to time and while I know we don't like to hear about things like this, I think some of the attached comments below are a good reminder for all of us. Background - a local cyclist died last nite as a result of injuries from a crash on a local ride (no vehicles invovled). This local ride has been around for yesrs and typically splits into several groups. I have been concerned about riding tactics/skills of some in the fast group and have refrained from doing this ride recently because I was concerned about safety. Unfortunately, my fears materialized. Details are still not clear, but only two riders went down.

Mark

snip
I’m still shaking from last night’s tragedy. Those of you who stopped and saw Ed’s condition also have been traumatized. This was the worst outcome I’ve ever heard of from a bike only accident. It’s an outlier on the risk spectrum, especially for us as recreational riders. I would respectfully recommend that tomorrow’s ride be a short one done in silence by those who feel up to riding.
Wes Bruner has been kind enough to send me some comments that may be helpful. Thanks so much, Wes. Please take time to consider what he says below. God bless everyone. - Rick

Each Tuesday and Thursday, we gather in Cayce for a short evening of riding. For some, it’s a chance to ride hard and fast with a group of like-minded cyclists. For others, it’s their first night out on a group ride. For many, it’s just a nice night to spend time with friends while getting some exercise and to socialize. We must all remember that when we gather at the start, we are there for our own reasons. We can’t look across the lot filled with lycra clad cyclists and figure out which rider is in which group. We can’t always differentiate between the experienced cyclist and the novice.
Last night we lost a cyclist in a serious accident and another spent the night in the hospital under observation. It’s hard to comprehend such an event. As cyclists, we understand the inherent risks of our sport. However, most of us associate the risks with the vehicles with which we share the road. An incident with another cyclist conjures up images of scraped knees, elbows, and maybe a broken collar bone at worst. Yet, last night, the ultimate loss was experienced. This happened on a casual weekly ride.
Please remember when riding, that there are others around you. Last week there was a wreck where a rider’s head reportedly came very closer to hitting the guard rail. Then, there was last night. This is not the way we want to ride. No one wants to cause, or be in, a wreck.
We cannot make assumptions when in a group riding down the road. Cycling etiquette should be the norm on these rides. We need to be predictable and announce our intentions: “on your left”, “slowing”, “stopping.” Be aware of those around us; be courteous and respectful. Each rider should be aware of their own abilities. To improve, one must be challenged; however, do so with care and let others know your intentions.
These rides are not a race. Please, take a moment to reflect on how, and why, you ride. Let’s change our patterns to return our rides into safe and enjoyable ones.
snip

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/12/13 1:26 PM

Amen, on several levels.

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greglepore
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 1724
Location: SE Pa, USA

6/12/13 4:04 PM

Excellent.

Someone who used to post here linked this on Facebook : http://www.bikelaw.com/blog/lost-art-of-the-group-ride/

Describes one of my local rides to a t-guys blasting up the road for no reason, gapping others (me once) who then get dropped. Guys not softpedalling after 2/3'rds or a little more of the group clear a often red signal, dropping the remainder (me a couple times). Guys forcing someone over the yellow on a fast downhill followed by a steep sharp uphill, causing the guy forced into oncoming traffic to brake sharply, then get dropped on the uphill, only to dangle 400yds off the back for a mile or so until dropped, without anyone ever glancing rearward (me last week). WTF? Never a smooth double paceline with shared pulls, its like some kind of strongman contest. If it wasn't the only game in town at the moment, I'd not play.

People forget that there is an ART to riding a bicycle in a group, not just a level of fitness required.

My thoughts go out to those traumatized-I was first on the scene to a crash a couple years ago when a car left turned two guys off the front of our group going about 35, and the images still haunt me. Both survived, but will never be quite the same.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/12/13 5:27 PM

So sorry to see that

That's horrible, my thoughts are with the families.

From this we don't seem to know the cause, so it would seem premature to blame it on bad riding.

But in general, I'm not very interested in group rides (in the sense of tight pacelines) anymore, and think they are over promoted. I did them for years and loved them. They are great if you have people with similar fitness, that know how to ride, and have similar objectives. But with a large group including inexperienced riders, they are a disaster waiting to happen. Plus I seldom do them now so my skills are not very sharp either. Fast rides with experienced riders are great, but if you include inexperienced riders, I think it has to be a slow, instructional ride (not a fast paceline with 6" gaps).

I got into a "b" group ride a few years ago, and after about 15 minutes in the pack I said "get me the hell out of here," went to the front and stayed there (out of fear). Casual riders just should not be in fast group rides.

And Greg's post illustrates that rider expectations and objectives can vary greatly. I've been on rides where the goal was a smooth rolling pace line for the entire ride, and rides where attacking was part of the fun. I preferred the attack rides myself, but the point is that the riders should agree on the ground rules. On one ride, the rule was to stay together on the "out" leg, every man for himself on the return.

Complicated subject. But just because you buy a bike, that doesn't mean it is a good idea to show up at the shop that night for a 50 rider group ride.

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greglepore
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 1724
Location: SE Pa, USA

6/12/13 6:25 PM

Attacking rides are fine, and part of the fun, but attacking at red lights is a "classless" move. You want to ride away from me, good on ya. You want to drop me because I've got smaller cajones when it comes to 18 wheelers, f off.

Sorry bout the hijack... should be a solemn thread and I should know better.

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

6/13/13 12:49 AM

different goals on a training ride

One caveat. Sometimes people have different goals on a training ride.

Some rides are no-drop, others are drop at will.
Sometimes people will attack (part of their training),
nobody is forced to chase them down. Let them go. If
they can hold off a rotating paceline, cool. If not, they
will get caught and spit out the back. No need to wait.

If the ride is large enough, the ride will splinter into
different groups.

Pick your group and let the crazies do their thing.

Sandiway

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

6/13/13 3:31 AM

Sometimes aggressive riding is fun but it has it's place. Heavy traffic and lights is not the place. If I get dropped on a safe yet agressive, so be it. I need to ride smarter and train harder then. To ride aggressively is different from riding dangerously. The antithesis to this kind of riding is all that is in town for weekend group riding. Those folks put a speed limit on the ride, no going over 19mph. Yet they are on $3k aero bikes.

It is very odd, I live in the same news coverage area as Mark yet, notta a peep in the papers, news etc. it is sad that the accident has not made more of an impact.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/13/13 7:40 AM


quote:
It is very odd, I live in the same news coverage area as Mark yet, notta a peep in the papers, news etc. it is sad that the accident has not made more of an impact.

Probably only in the very local paper only.

I was at the scence of a single bike accident ended with fatality. It did make the 2 "local" paper, the village the accident happened and the village the rider lived. But not the bigger papers.

Being at the scence of fatality totally shook me up. We hear the word "tramatized" everyday and the shock behind the word probably got lost for most. A month afterward, we did a ride that went through the same spot. I, and those who were at the accident scence, just got totally emotional. I left the area shortly after. Had I remain there, I think I would ALWAYS remember that scence every time I ride through the spot.

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Wheels
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 1160
Location: Needham, MA

6/13/13 9:58 AM

"Racing" Training Rides

A few of us Boston TTFer's gave up riding in the "World Championship" Training rides for a lot of reasons mentioned already.

When I started,the pace was hard, but common sense and courtesy were used. This meant the first mile or two at warm-up pace (18-20 mph), waiting at stoplights, regrouping at the top of hills, regrouping after townline sprints, etc. Group was a mix of levels of mostly Masters riders, with some college and post college folks. Some socializing was done, but by the end of the 28/42 mile ride,you got a good work out,

The group started to slowly change to the mid late twenties age group and more "Race Kit" folks showed up. The unwritten rules went away and it start to become full on the gas fright from the parking lot. Not unusual to see the pace at 23-25 mph within 500 yards from the start. Didn't make the stoplight, tough. Blow through it if you want to stay with the leaders. Cut in front of that car to bridge the gap between you and the tail rider, screw safety.

The rides became all out dragfests with little common sense, safety and courtesy.


Last edited by Wheels on 6/13/13 11:33 AM; edited 1 time in total

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

6/13/13 10:06 AM


quote:
Not unusual to see the pace at 23-25 mph within 500 yards from the start.


This is what I don't understand. Let them go if they want.

As long as you have a bunch who warm up and respect the "rules", those who don't can ride off into the sunset.

And everyone gets the ride they want in...

Sandiway

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/13/13 12:10 PM

Stepping up to lead


quote:
This is what I don't understand. Let them go if they want.

As long as you have a bunch who warm up and respect the "rules", those who don't can ride off into the sunset.

And everyone gets the ride they want in...

I'm been through a bit of that in 2 clubs so I'd share my personal take:

The "bunch" who respect the unwritten rules needs a leader!

If many who didn't want to go all out were left to their own device, they didn't get a "group ride". So the next time they too would go all out in order to stay with the group, or stop showing up at the start at all.

They need a rallying point to form their own group.


I'm a slow rider who likes to climb hills and ride long distance (longer than the typical 30-40 mi of most 13-15mph group rides do). First club I join, I kept on joining faster group doing routes I like and kept getting spilt out the back. The few ride of my pace AND my kind of route/terrain were always being "pace-busted" by faster riders. I stopped doing group rides and rode on my own.

I asked around. There ARE riders who likes to ride my type of routes but no rides being offered.

I'm not a leader type of personality. So it took me a while of riding on my own (or the occasional buddies whose schedule coincide with mine) to finally got fed up and lead my own rides!

As a leader, I would stick to the advertised pace and wait for stragglers. Pace busters would be send out front (and be lost if not careful at following cue sheet). Right from the start, I got a fairly good following. Now everyone kept asking me when I would lead this or that ride again which they missed the last time I led it. But when I pointed out the cue sheets are in the club library, would anyone else care to just lead it on a date of their own choosing? Nobody did so far...

My conclusion? Most people prefer to follow SOMEONE! They would of course prefer to congregate around someone who does what thye would like to do. But failing that, they'd more often follow someone into things they really would rather NOT do if they stop to think about it!

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mfurtick
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 51
Location: Lexington, SC

6/15/13 8:11 PM

News article

Here's an article from the local paper. Not a lot more details.
http://www.thestate.com/2013/06/13/2817460/west-columbia-physician-killed.html

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

6/17/13 7:29 AM

I suspect a lot of it is down to the male ego.

Back in my Joisey days, some A-rides used to have a women's section. Those racers rode a sensible rotating paceline.

Sandiway

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/17/13 9:00 AM

We were lucky in NJ, the little cliche within the BTCNJ group we developed was some super riders.

This is most of the group that did the Parsipany to Wildwood Crest yearly 180 miler. We had our moments on the Wed night ride in which a sprint would happen in two places as well. Always close, tight pace lines and little bar banging [spints] if at all. There was usually only two left quickly in those sections anyway.

I trusted these inches away all day. Literally the Shore ride was just that for solid hours during the ride. Close and tight roving pace line for all but the little rest sections. ;) I sure miss those riders.

Plenty of skilled riders in NJ I would trust being in tight and close all day, a few are of have been users here in fact. A few in TN, and not found that cliche here so far.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/17/13 12:03 PM

Sad news in Maine as well

A cyclist was killed in an accident Saturday during the first couple hours of the Trek Across Maine, a 3 day charity ride. There have been several articles, the latest I've seen is here:

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Police-Video-confirms-truck-involved-in-cyclist-fatality.html

Despite the headline, there has been no information disclosed to indicate the truckdriver is at fault. Apparently the rider fell while being passed by the truck and went under the rear wheels. It does not appear that he was hit by the truck before falling, or that the truck was inappropriately close (based on accounts of riders who viewed the accident). It is speculated that perhaps the cyclist was influenced by the truck's draft. Be careful, it's dangerous out there.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/17/13 4:20 PM

Update

Re the Maine sorry above, the latest report is that the cyclist lost control while taking a drink from his water bottle.

I guess if he was taking a drink when the truck went by with a big draft, that is just a horrible confluence of events.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

6/18/13 5:17 AM

Sad, but entirely plausible

It's really a tragedy for everyone involved.

Even after 40+ years of doing it, I still occasionally get a bit squirrely when retrieving or stowing a bottle. As un-stylish as they may be, it's just one reason I prefer hydration packs to bottles on anything other than short rides.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

6/18/13 7:37 AM

confession time

While I'm "usually" pretty good at retrieving and stowing the water bottle, the same can't be said about other occasional squirrelly behavior. Just this past Saturday, I raise my hand to point at some trees and nearly went off the edge of the road into the field! :-(

I also never quite master the art of pointing out road hazards on group rides. I often end up just calling out "hole left/right" (and only if it's a wheel swallowing size ones).

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

6/18/13 9:06 AM

Logging trucks

I remember on my first Boston-Montreal-Boston ride, being in Quebec after crossing over at Rouses Point, and being passed by huge logging trucks closer than I'd like. It was scary to the extent that certain behavioral instincts kicked in. In circumstances like these, it's always better to concentrate on riding extra steady, relaxed, both hands on the bars. No drinking, no fiddling about with a bike computer or unwrapping energy bars...

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/18/13 9:32 AM

Elaine is doing well as a new roadie. But I find now that we have branched onto roads with cars I am critiquing a lot things she is doing in fear of exactly what Sandi just said. It is exactly "certain behavioral instincts" I have concerns about.

We are on a road where there is 2-3" pavement then a 3' drop into a rocky ditch. When a car is behind she rides inches from that line, which is what was going on in this situation Sunday.

In fact I am behind her in this situation [with my little glasses mirror on the inside of my lens]. Sunday we got into a little altercation because I was 2' out telling her to get away from the edge. Then of course some jerk passes me too closely on a double yellow line 500' from the stop sign on an uphill. The jerk passenger was yelling out his window as he passes "single file you asshole".

Usually here folks are really good about bikes, then there is the 5% that are in a hurry to get to the stop/light etc. and put cyclists in danger.

Except I was well behind her and we were not riding double. I was just 2' left of her. I sprinted up to the stop sign and just as I got there the car in front of subject 'jerks' cleared the stop sign. They took off before I could have the conversation about how many illegal things they did, and how I was not riding double and doing everything legal. Of course they peeled off after not totally stopping at the stop sign.

I would rather the altercation and subsequent cop visit for an argument than jerks causing the "certain behavioral instincts" which may have put Elaine in a deep ditch, and subsequent possible injuries.

Other than that, the inaugural ride on her Madone went very well, including some short hills. I continue to be proud of her. Thus, Ruben out Carbon Trek in. She likes the 6 lb lighter bike in WSD geometry and pretty blue/white/silver. Go figure...

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/28/13 4:02 AM

Maine: report points to turbulence

It is thought that turbulence from the truck, perhaps combined with the cyclist taking a drink, caused the Maine crash:


http://www.pressherald.com/news/Crash-report-cites-truck-draft-in-Trek-Across-Maine-cyclists-death.html

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Pat Clancy
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 1353
Location: Manchester, CT

6/28/13 11:34 AM

Passing trucks and turbulence

Perhaps the scariest experience I've had as a cyclist occurred on a fast downhill (the Hebron side of John Tom Hill on Rt 94 for you locals). It's about 1.25 miles long peaking at maybe 9% just before the bottom. It's not difficult to exceed 50 mph with a good tuck. I seldom ride the road due to the lack of a shoulder and the speed of traffic.

But on this day, while half way down at a speed approaching 50, a huge dump truck blew by me. He had to be doing 70 or more. In a split second I was sucked out to the middle of the lane. Thank God there were no cars following close behind him.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/28/13 12:04 PM

I had an asshole encounter yesterday. I signal to turn left and get over to the double yellow.

I see jerk-wad he is back there in my mirror, not realizing yet his jerkness. I am doing 20+, the jerk speeds passed me mostly over the double yellow 'way too close' and makes the hard left at normal speed. I actually passed him back in the left.

Window up, but you bet he heard me yelling you are a fookin asshole 3 times along side! He proceeds down the road looking like he is being careful, flying casual et al. Jerk off!

I am going to get my ass kicked soon, I am getting a little too cocky as my testosterone builds with the miles. ;O

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